Ep 331 Unlocking Conscious Fertility: The Mind-Body Connection with Lorne Brown

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by fertility expert, acupuncturist, and conscious work practitioner, Lorne Brown @lorne_brown_official. Originally a CPA, Lorne’s personal health journey led him to discover the transformative power of Chinese medicine, ultimately changing his career path. Now, as a leader in integrative fertility care and the host of The Conscious Fertility Podcast, Lorne bridges the gap between science and spirituality to help individuals optimize their fertility and overall well-being.

In this episode, Lorne shares how conscious work plays a powerful role in fertility, explaining how subconscious beliefs and emotional resistance can impact reproductive health. He discusses the mind-body connection, the importance of inner healing, and how shifting from stress to flow can create profound changes. Whether you’re on a fertility journey or simply looking to align with your highest self, this conversation is packed with insights on conscious transformation, holistic healing, and the power of perception.

Guest Bio:

Dr. Lorne Brown @lorne_brown_official is a leader in integrative fertility care, blending Chinese medicine, mind-body healing, and cutting-edge therapies. A former Chartered Professional Accountant (CPA), his personal health journey led him to acupuncture, herbal medicine, and holistic fertility support.

As the founder of Acubalance Wellness Centre, he introduced low-level laser therapy (LLLT) for fertility and pioneered IVF acupuncture in Vancouver. He also created Healthy Seminars, an online education platform, and hosts The Conscious Fertility Podcast, where he explores the intersection of science, consciousness, and reproductive health.


Websites/Social Media Links:

Learn more about Lorne Brown, visit his website here
Follow Lorne Brown on Instagram
Listen to Conscious Fertility Podcast

 

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  # TWF: Lorne Brown (audio)

  [00:00:00]

  Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility [00:01:00] Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  Michelle Oravitz: Welcome to the podcast, Lauren.

  Lorne Brown: Hey, Michelle, glad to be together with you over whatever we call this technology. I think yours is the Riverside.

  Yeah, I had a good time interviewing you for my Conscious Fertility podcast, so I'm looking forward to having more conversations with you because that was a lot of fun for me.

  Michelle Oravitz: It was a lot of fun for me too. And I actually it was really, really nice. And to see that we have very similar views just on reality and health and fertility,

  Lorne Brown: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: it was a lot of fun. And so last week actually for everybody's listening, that was the first time we actually officially met via zoom.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah. But we know each other. We're part of the, the ABORM, right? The Acupuncture TCM Reproductive Board of Medicine but yeah, [00:02:00] like the first time you and I had real conversation rather than chat conversation.

  Michelle Oravitz: Which is awesome. I

  Lorne Brown: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: it. And I think that we're so aligned in so many ways. I think that we both love the whole bridging of science and spirituality. We're kind of nerds in that department.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: for people listening, I would love if you can introduce yourself. I know we also have, we started out with very different backgrounds. And went into acupuncture, you have like kind of a similar cause you started in accounting, right?

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, so, I am a CPA, so a Certified Professional Accountant back in the day they were called Chartered Accountants in Canada and because of health issues and having such a a response to Chinese medicine in particular eventually I, I was the, one of the controllers and tax guys at this time with ocean spray growers here in B.

  C. and I left that position so I could go back to school and study Chinese medicine as my second career. So that's kind of a little bit about my background. And then eventually

  Michelle Oravitz: [00:03:00] Like what made you think about doing Chinese medicine?

  Lorne Brown: I was ill. I had um, you know, back in the day, this is in the eighties and early nineties. So this Chinese medicine wasn't as available. This was before websites, right? Where you could really see what other people were doing and learning. And so I had severe gut issues, you know, diagnosis IBS, chronic fatigue, candida and you know, I got scoped through all each end and eventually and I tried different Western approaches and eventually it was the herb, Chinese herbal medicine actually that dramatically changed it so much.

  So, I mean, I have some memories. I did a bachelor of science first in math. That was my first thing. Then I went and did accounting in McGill. And and then I went and became a CPA, back then CA. They changed the letters for the designation. And I remember when I was at McGill I was already seeing alternative medicine doctors, in particular Chinese medicine.

  And I remember [00:04:00] s for the first time, how much clarity, because I had, I didn't realize how much brain fog I had.

  And so the clarity I had, I was in the classroom, I just realized how easy things were going in, and I was just remembering things, and I just felt like things were almost in slow motion in a good way, like a professional athlete when they can see the court.

  And physically, I just felt I had so much endurance, so much energy. I was just I felt great. And you know, when you've been feeling poorly for so long, That I thought that was normal.

  And then I got, you know, the illness was so bad while I was early days in my accounting studies at McGill. it interfered with my, my studies.

  It interfered my life. I almost couldn't get outta bed sometimes with the fatigue and the brain fog. And so I had an I had an aunt who was into this stuff. , I was, wasn't right. Remember, it came from Bachelor's Science Math in Duke County. I was, I think I was always open-minded. Look what I'm doing,

  but it wasn't kind of on my radar.

  And she's the one that suggested I see her Chinese herbalist. And you know, I was desperate. I was living in Montreal, Canada. She was living in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. So [00:05:00] I, I got on a plane and flew to see her person because I wouldn't know who to go see right back then. And you know, through dietary changes and herbal medicine.

  It, it transformed my life and funny story because, you know, I do acupuncture like you do. I always had a fear of needles, right? I never was a big fan of needles. So the first time I was getting acupuncture, the acupuncturist who treated me, I have everybody lying down, but he had me sitting up on the table.

  Right on the treatment table. I was sitting and he's putting these needles in me and he's like, are you okay? I guess he could see I was going a little green

  and I'm trying to be, you know, tough guy. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm fine. Next thing I know flop, I passed out on the table.

  Michelle Oravitz: do.

  Lorne Brown: So.

  Yeah. So now I receive it.

  I love it. Now I give it. But I did. It's a mind over matter, right? I did have that fear of needles, which is why I started with the herbal medicine. Most people like, Oh, I'll do acupuncture, but they maybe have an aversion to the herbs or the taste of the herbs. I was the other way [00:06:00] around. I got introduced to Chinese medicine through the herbal medicine.

  And then I was like, Oh, I'll try the acupuncture too. and, you know, I stuck with it, obviously. And, and eventually went back to school and now I can I receive it and I can give it and I have so much compassion for those who have a fear of needles, but usually if they come in and try it, they realize it doesn't feel like needles that you're getting.

  And now with technology, I have low level laser systems as well. So I can do laser acupuncture for those people that just cannot. Experience acupuncture because it's so stressful for them.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, for sure. So that's that's one of the things or sometimes starting them out with baby needles because the baby needles are really, really, really super thin. You can barely feel it.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah,

  I mean, I, I mean, I just give them the acupuncture for the first time and, and they're nervous. But, you know, they let me put in one needle, then another, then a third. And that's all I'll do for the first visit for people who have a big phobia. But like you and I know, and those that have received it, it's not like getting a [00:07:00] needle at the doctor when you get a shot or blood drawn.

  And so you really, you know, once they're in, it takes like a minute to put them in. Then you go and tell a beautiful rest, la la land for 30 to 45 minutes on the table. So all worth it for most.

  Michelle Oravitz: totally worth it. For sure. So talk about why you got into fertility specifically.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, and I'll keep it short, but it was, it was never my intention. My intention was to treat gut issues, digestive issues, because that's what brought me to the medicine. So I thought I'd be, and that's what I set out to do, IBS, irritable bowel syndrome, Crohn's, colitis, severe bloating, constipation, diarrhea, that kind of stuff is what I thought I would be seeing.

  and I did see a lot of that, and in our medicine, when we treat, we do a very Detailed history and we treat holistically so we can't just focus on the gut health just like for fertility We don't just focus on the women's ovaries, right? We focus holistically and so most people that come to health professionals back then And [00:08:00] I started in 2000 and now still are female And so I'd always do a menstrual history and the the menstrual history is such a great guide for health, right?

  We can get so much information. That's why I prefer treating women over men. I treat both women who are menstruating. Help me diagnose them from a Chinese medicine perspective because I get so much information from their cycle history. And so as I was treating their bloating in their IBS, or they're alternating between, you know, constipation and diarrhea, or even colitis and Crohn's symptoms.

  They noticed their PMS went away, they noticed their menstrual pain went away, their irregular bleeding, the spotting, all those things changed. So I became popular. with women's health in general. So I was just doing women's health. So I was seeing people with perimenopause and menopausal symptoms and with painful periods.

  That was what I was seeing. And back then, again, the web wasn't a popular thing. I was advertising a magazine with a focus in women's health. And this woman who found me was going through an IVF and she was [00:09:00] going to see one of our colleagues, Randine Lewis, in Houston. So I'm in Vancouver and she flew to Houston to see Randine because this was before Zoom.

  And she, Randine told her she needs regular acupuncture at least once a week so she's going to enter herbal medicine. So she has to find somebody local because it wasn't reasonable or cost effective for her to fly weekly to Houston from Vancouver, right? Nobody was focusing on fertility, but she found me women's health.

  So she came to my clinic and told me her story and asked if I'd be willing to follow Randine's acupuncture prescriptions and her herbal suggestions and do that for her in Vancouver. And I kind of said cheek cheekily, but in a funny way, in a cute way, as a non aggressive way. So basically you want me to be like a monkey.

  And put the points where Randine tells you, tells me, and prescribe the herbs where Randine how Randine tells me. She goes, yeah. And I'm like, I'm in. That sounds great. I get to learn from somebody. Because what our audience doesn't know, [00:10:00] Randine was already focusing with fertility. And she had already had this draft book, which came out shortly after, called The Infertility Cure.

  First of many of her books. So, I thought it was a great opportunity to be able to learn from somebody with more experience and, and not have responsibility to the outcome. And so, and then women who are going through IVF and struggling with fertility, they talk and By 2004, I only would take reproductive health issues.

  That was all I would take because I was too busy, and I started hiring associates and training them because I couldn't handle the load myself. Now, here we are recording this in 2025 I have multiple associates in our clinic. And that do focus on fertility and myself personally, I still see a lot of reproductive health.

  But I'm so into the conscious work now. Cause I have low level laser therapy that we use for fertility, but I use that for so many other things. Brain health pain, pain injury. And I do a lot with pure menopausal symptoms. So, I would say, and half my practice, when I look at my [00:11:00] schedule is conscious work.

  Right? Is that mind body work? Half my practice is that. They still get acupuncture and low level laser therapy as part of the treatment but they're coming in with, I'm wanting belief change work. and I do see a lot of reproductive health, but I see everything now. So it's, it's kind of gone full circle.

  Because of the conscious work, because conscious work is my passion. And so whoever comes in the door that's looking for change, they may want a relationship change or want a relationship, job changes, finances. They want a baby, they want a healing. Basically, they want to be happy and they realize they can't get it from the outside.

  So they're looking for help on the inside to have that transformation. And that's why we use it for fertility because it's such a powerful tool when you can heal the mind, the body follows really well.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. No doubt. So talk about the conscious work, specifically. What does it entail? Mm-hmm

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, well, I'm trained also as a clinical hypnotherapist, and I've done a lot of what they call energy psychology modalities. So I'm trained in [00:12:00] Psyche, emotional freedom technique, Bankstein healing method, you know, energy type medicine. But from the clinical hypnotherapy perspective and what I would call conscious work, it's inner work.

  It's waking up to your true nature. It's waking up to what some people would call higher self, what they would call consciousness witness consciousness. You'd have to be open and appreciate that there's more to this world than meets the eyes. And so we have a Newtonian science world, what's considered a materialistic world, and those are things that we can kind of measure.

  And then there's the science, the new science called quantum physics. Which understands there's so much more to this reality than what we see and when you have these shifts inside it has your your perception to the world You see it differently and you can think of it as if you live in a building Let's say your your life is a building, you know On the first floor if that's where you live, you're going to have a certain perspective of what your neighborhood is And it's going to be very limited because you can only see from the first floor.

  And as you move up, if the 20 store [00:13:00] building, if you live above 10 and you start to live on the 15th floor, you have a different perspective of what is in your neighborhood than the person who lives on the first floor. And so conscious work is about kind of getting to a different perspective. I we know, you know, through so much more research now that we perceive the world.

  Through the lenses of our subconscious programming, you know, and so how we see the world is through the lens of our subconscious and that subconscious programming is is inherited and imprinted on us inherited like literally few generations before we know this through um, research on Holocaust survivors and their children and grandchildren.

  And we know this through the study, the cherry blossom study on mice were stressed and traumatized and it got passed down to their grand pups. I won't go into the study because it's

  Michelle Oravitz: and DNA.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, it gets tagged. It's not a genetic mutation, it's a tag. So it can, one generation get tagged, and one generation you can heal it.

  So, you see the world through the lens of your subconscious, and that lens is based on your history. And [00:14:00] so, I heard a teacher of consciousness once say, Reality's white snow, let's pretend that. And then you have red glasses. I have orange glasses. Some of the listeners have blue, green, white, yellow.

  We're all seeing white snow, but we're all experiencing it, perceiving it differently because of our lens. And if we want to have a different experience to see that reality, we got to change our lens.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yes.

  Lorne Brown: You know, or we're both fans of Joe Dispenza, right? We both run retreats, and

  Michelle Oravitz: we're Joe Dispenza groupies.

  Lorne Brown: yeah, I like, I like his work.

  I like his retreats and his books. And in his book, Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself, I think it's where he said it. I've read all of his books and been to many retreats, but I really liked how he said your personal reality is based on your personality. And you can't have, how do you expect to have a different reality if you bring your current personality into your future?

  You're gonna get the same thing. Right. And so this is about having that shift because, you know, we're going kind of into a rabbit hole here, but if you're open for it,

  Michelle Oravitz: No, I'm totally open for it. And my, my listeners are used [00:15:00] to it,

  Lorne Brown: okay, you know, God, I see they're allowed to, or Gandhi, I've seen this quote attributed to both, but it kind of goes like your beliefs lead to your thoughts, which lead to your feelings, which lead to your actions and behaviors, which lead to your habits. which leads to your destiny. Basically they're saying is your behaviors are always congruent with your beliefs.

  And when they conflict the program, the belief is going to win. And if you do a behavior long enough, it becomes your habit. So it becomes a reality. So we often want to go and work on the outside world. We often want to go work on a behavior, but the behavior stems from a belief or a program often unconscious.

  And so we'll self sabotage ourselves, even though we really want to lose that weight. We go and we diet, we exercise, but that's a behavior. But if you have a program that, you know, I'm not beautiful, right, or I'm not thin enough, then the subconscious wants congruency, and it will find a way to sabotage that.

  [00:16:00] Consciously or unconsciously, it'll happen. And so rather than going to work on the behavior, we go to work on the program, and then it flows down, and the behavior changes naturally.

  Michelle Oravitz: It's so true. And it's almost that, you know, that saying whether you think whether you Think you can or can't

  Lorne Brown: you're

  right. Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: it's just a matter of what we choose and I think the key with this is that people don't even realize It's almost like they're so asleep in the matrix

  Lorne Brown: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: is such a great movie, by the way, because of that reason, it really shows us how, if we just knew that that was the case,

  Lorne Brown: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: had those beliefs and it impacts our reality, then we would make a difference.

  But I think the problem is, is not even knowing that it's even there.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah. Well, of course, and I don't know if the age has changed, but it was my observation that around age 40, people start to realize that they need to do their inner work. the drug doesn't work anymore. The antidepressant isn't working, [00:17:00] or they're in a third relationship. It's not working.

  They change cities. Like it's not working. The changing the outside is only temporary.

  So somewhere around 40, maybe it's younger now cause things seem to be speeding up,

  but around age 40 people come in there and they don't know what they're looking for, but they know they're looking for it. And you and I have language for this, right?

  They're looking for inner work, conscious work, but they kind of know that I know by getting a new relationship, it's not going to help. I got it. Something's not right. about me. And I, you know, I'm going to give an example because the relationship one comes up a lot in my practice when people come and see me.

  and I share this as an example of self sabotaging programs and why I like the conscious work. And we can talk about how this plays with fertility as well and baby manifestation. This actually wasn't my patient, but it was somebody who shared it. And I loved this case so much because it, it really is a great explanation of of belief change.

  So She was around 45. She was a lawyer and she had become aware that she was somehow sabotaging relationships. No matter what [00:18:00] relationship she went in, like she would find some not such great guys in her opinion, but she actually realized she found some good guys too. But for some reason, even she knew there was a button and she, she knew she shouldn't push that button, but she would push the button even in her mind when she knew this isn't going to work out.

  And the, and the relationship would collapse. So at her clinical hypnotherapy session, She got regressed and in this regression, she's experiencing herself as a four year old and she's remembering her mom is making dinner for her and her older sister was around seven and she promises the girls that they get popsicles if they eat all their dinner.

  So her older sister. Eats her dinner fairly quickly and gets a popsicle. And she, she being for living in that theta brainwave living in the moment, it's not eating quickly. And all of a sudden she sees her sister with a popsicle and she goes, I want a popsicle and her mom's tired end of day. And she angrily says, no, you haven't eaten your dinner.

  You don't get your dinner to you. You don't get your popsicle till you finish your [00:19:00] dinner. And it probably wasn't said in a loving way. And this triggered the four year old. And like many four year olds, she got. You know, she had a little four year old temper tantrum, and that set off her mom, and then she got sent off.

  To her room without dinner and without popsicle. And in her story, she's thinking in her dialogue that mommy likes, mommy likes and loves my sister more than me. Mommy doesn't love me. I'm not lovable. And she has this aha moment when that program really started for her. I'm not lovable. Now, remember I said the subconscious and the conscious want congruency.

  The heart and mind want congruency. When it conflicts, the heart, the shen, the subconscious, wins. And so, she would have a relationship, and if this guy was doting and loving her, her subconscious goes, that's not who we are, we're unlovable. And she would Consciously or unconsciously sabotage the relationship.

  So in hypnotherapy work, we're able to bring her 45 year old self back and reparent doing her [00:20:00] child work and shift that. And I often say in my practice, I have a an approach. Notice, accept, choose again. Notice everything is neutral and we give it meaning. Neutral. She just did not get a popsicle. Neutral.

  The meaning she gave it was I'm not lovable, right? And children that are in theta, meaning they're in, they're sponges. They don't have that prefrontal development to discern things. They just take things in and we don't know why. But you know, if you're a product of divorce, which a lot of people are It's usually for the children.

  It does some form of scarring, subconscious scarring, right? Because the children feel like they're responsible. It's their fault. So guilt shows up or shame shows up. Not safe. So all these programs come up and when I distill them down, I see people that are worth hundreds of millions of dollars. I see people that can't afford my services, right?

  And based on what they get paid, right? And when you distill it down, the stories are, can be very different, but when you still it down, it's I'm not enough, right? I'm not lovable. [00:21:00] I'm not pretty enough. I'm not thin enough. I'm not smart enough. It's kind of, I'm not enough when you distill it down, whether you're worth a couple hundred million or whether you're scraping things together.

  So. Notice everything is neutral. We give it meaning. And when we believe in the story, we make it real. So this is not to believe in the story. And that's kind of that materialistic side, right? And we use these tools conscious work to go in and clean up the operating system. And here's an important point I want to share with our listeners is You know, you have this hardware, but the hardware functions depending on the software and I got multiple stories like this, but I'll give you a couple, you know, they have done research on those with multiple personality disorders and depending on the personality, right?

  One will need reading glasses. One will not. One's blood tests will be diabetic and the other one will not. Right?

  I mean.

  Michelle Oravitz: to orange juice.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, when we allergic not so same physical body. So from a journalistic point of view, this makes no sense, but from a quantum perspective, it does. Right. And and we've heard people [00:22:00] with near death experiences.

  I've, I've heard through a colleague of one before, and I just, I'd met one recently, actually, and she's written a book on it, Anita,

  where she, yeah, it's great, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. Yeah.

  Lorne Brown: So, you know, her story is she. Developed cancer, funny thing, not so funny, but she always had a fear that she would die and get cancer. So, you know, you got to be careful where you're putting your focus, right?

  She did everything she could to not get cancer. She got cancer and she was ridden with tumors and she's in the hospital and her husband's by her side. And the story goes that she goes unconscious. So they tell her, say goodbye. She, this is it. She's, you know. She's going to die and she's got, they got on some medications too, I believe for pain relief.

  And I think it was a day or two later, she opens her eyes and she has an experience of a near death experience where we won't go into it today where she sees other. Family members are beings, but not the personalities like she just knew who they were, but she realizes she's coming back and she knew she was coming back [00:23:00] different.

  It wasn't like a full lobotomy, like 180 degree turn, but she had a personality change, right? And she knew her cancer is gone. And when she woke up, she tried to convince her husband her cancer was gone. And he's like, you know, no, you know, they got the doctors. She was able to re Share stories of conversations that they had outside when she was in the coma in another room.

  She forbade him. She could,

  you know, she knew what the doctor's shoes look like, right? Everything. So

  Michelle Oravitz: that's that bird's eye view.

  Lorne Brown: she was outside the body,

  but her cancer went away without any medication. After that, she woke up from a coma. And her cancer just resolved herself. So there's that personality. So her personality changed and her physical body changed, right?

  Because of this and going back to our friend Joe Dispenza, Dr. Joseph Dispenza and your listeners check out his book. They're supernatural the placebo and breaking the habit of being yourself. That's a really good one breaking the habit

  Right. It's a good one to start with. He talks about you can use matter to change matter, which can be slow.

  That's for our fertility patients taking supplements. [00:24:00] That's IVF, that's diet matter, change matter, or you can use energy to change matter, which can be spontaneous. Like what happened with Anita, which when her cancer went away, right?

  Is it went away pretty quickly, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: There's people with well, we see it all the time at Joe Dispenza's work stage four cancer. It just, it goes away.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah. So that's working with a different, dimension of yourself, right? If you want to speak. So the conscious work that I use is how to tap into that, how to tune into it. And it came from my experience, right? I, I've learned this and developed this from many people I've studied with. And I'm a kinesthetic learning.

  That's learner. That's why I've learned psych KFT, Marissa peers, rapid transformational therapy, Ericksonian The guy just. Love it, right? I think it started from insecurity. Not enough, not smart enough. So I kept on doing things which brought me my success outside, but inside it wasn't enough. So I kept on learning and learning and learning.

  And then eventually, you know, you're brought to your knees, which I was. debilitating anxiety. And I go in and do the [00:25:00] inner work and I have the transformation. And then I'm kind of at peace. Don't feel like I need to do too much. But now there's this new drive, this overflowing, wanted to share. It's a different feeling.

  It's comes from peace. It doesn't exhaust you. Right. And so I think on the outside, if I was looking at me, I looked. Similar as in go, go, go. Always learning, always doing right. But I was coming from fear and lack for many years, my doing and stuff. So my doing just got me more fear and lack because I could never feel that void.

  Now I'm going, going, going, but it's coming from feeling more whole and complete and I'm not attached whether I do it or not, right? I'm not attached to it so much. And but yet I'm still doing it. But now I feel Charged by it.

  Michelle Oravitz: That's so great. I mean, don't you see the yin and the yang too, in a lot of this

  Lorne Brown: Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: the harmony, the

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, and you got to keep going into the end So you then you have the young and it happens, right? So, you know, I go inside I become quiet and and then all of a sudden all this [00:26:00] activity and inspire thought comes through me And then I I want to go in and see if I can manifest it, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. And everything kind of goes in pulses, you know, there's a, there's pulses, even with like experiences that we have in life, there's ebbs and flows. I think that we get impatient or we think that it's going to be forever, but nothing lasts forever. It's like the good news and the bad news, nothing lasts forever.

  Lorne Brown: Right? Yeah, it's the good news and the bad news. Yeah, in that sense, don't be attached.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, true.

  Lorne Brown: Which is a practice.

  Michelle Oravitz: it is, and it's something that the ancients have been telling us this whole time. They've told us to go within, they've told us not to be too attached, to learn from nature, to learn from what's around us. to flow, flow with it.

  Lorne Brown: And a tip for our listeners, because again, I teach what I've experienced. Many people may be going, well, I've read these books and I know all this stuff and I haven't had a shift. I was that guy where I had read everything and took courses, but I didn't do the process work. I, I conceptually understood it.

  I could teach it. But I wasn't living it. And it wasn't until I actually did the process work that the [00:27:00] transformation started happening, the awakening started happening. And so that's kind of, you know, with my patients, when I work with them, they want to get in the head and understand, which I love. We got to understand when you understand the why behind it, they say that the how becomes easier.

  The why is, you know, how does it work? And then the how is, what are you going to do? But if it's just an intellectual discussion you'll have a mind shift. But you won't have a trait change. And what's the difference? A mind shift is that temporary, you feel excited, this makes sense. It feels excited, but it's a shift.

  It's like when you pull an elastic band apart, it's neuro elasticity, it stretches out, this feels good. But within an hour or two, or a day or two, it goes back to its normal shape. So you haven't made a neuroplastic change, you just made a mindset shift.

  And if you do that daily, multiple times, it eventually become neuroplastic.

  And what I mean neuroplastic is if you stretch out a piece of soft plastic and you let go, it stays stretched. So that's the trait change.

  So repetition or doing many things that create a mind shift regularly often will give you [00:28:00] neuroplasticity changes, right? That hold becomes a trait. That's that, you know, do certain actions over and over again.

  So that's one way. But then there's other. faster ways to do neuroplastic changes, which doesn't just require repetition. That is one of them, but there's other processes I use. Part of my hypnosis practices and other energy psychology tools is what they're often called now to help make that neuroplastic change, not just from repetition, but from doing these Process work and we call it process work because it's not it's not done.

  It's a it's a bottom up process versus a top down So i'm not a counselor a therapist. That would be somebody who's doing a top down Let's talk about this

  and there's some benefit to it. The clinical hypnotherapist perspective is a bottom up meaning Your tyra box said this once your issues are stuck in your tissues

  So when you have these emotions rarely does somebody say I feel it in my head It does happen once in a while.

  Most people feel it in their throat, in their chest, in their stomach. It's in your cells. And we got science to talk about [00:29:00] how the microbiome changes with stress and emotions.

  Michelle Oravitz: images of people, all people that were angry, all people that were sad. And they would notice that it would light up in certain spots consistently in the body, which is really fascinating. You can probably find it online.

  Lorne Brown: cool. Absolutely.

  And, you know, we know like we got serotonin receptors in the gut. Now the heart's being known as a, as a second brain may have more what the read off of it more than the brain and, and then dispensa and heart math talk about heart brain coherence.

  So we're. You know, I look at it this way is, you know, back in the day of Galileo and Newton, the days when we thought that the sun revolved around the earth and the earth was flat, it was hard for society to shift and science to shift, right?

  Cause everything we understood the way we could look, it was like, no, no, the world's flat. It look at it, you can tell, look, look outside, doesn't look round or look, look, you can tell that. the sun is going around the earth. Look in the sky. It's so obvious. And you [00:30:00] can't tell me the earth is spinning.

  We would feel it, right?

  And now today, most people

  realize that the earth is round, not flat. There are so few flatters out there. They realize the earth is spinning and that the earth goes around the sun. But there's your perception, you know, there's the first floor view. From my view, the sun is going around the earth.

  I see it rise and set, right? I can see it float around. I'm standing still. I'm pretty sure about it, but that's a illusion. It's not a complete correct perception on that first floor when you go to a higher floor. So in this case, when we go into space, We can see that it's actually the earth that goes around the sun and the earth is round.

  And then if we go to a higher floor, we're going to probably get a whole other understanding of what's going on in this human experience and purpose and what's your individual purpose. And people have spoken of it. I haven't tapped into that aspect. I've had those. Non medicated, so non psychedelic experiences where I've tapped into profound peace, where I've tapped into bliss.[00:31:00]

  I've also, through psychedelics, I've only done it once, so I'll never do it again, where I tapped into my shadow, right? Accelerated my journey, but I wouldn't wish that upon anybody, going into my shadow work unprepared.

  Michelle Oravitz: 'cause if you, you have to be ready for it. That's

  Lorne Brown: I wasn't ready for it. I, I, I cheated. I cheated with psychedelics. And it put me into my shadow grateful now because and here's a litmus test for myself.

  So I share this with the listeners as well. If you. don't like your life now, then I'm pretty sure you're still living in kind of a victim mode. You don't like your past and you'll have all the evidence to say why you don't like it. And if you can love your past, no matter how bad it is, then I know you love your now.

  I know you love your life. Why? Because You realize that who you are today is based on everything that's happened to you and you and because you love where you are today, you would never want to change your past because you love your day. Doesn't mean you want to relive your past, but you're grateful for.

  You don't regret it because you love today. [00:32:00] But if you hate your past, then it's I'm pretty sure you really don't love it. your day. And there are some terrible things that have happened to people. And I've seen people who've had terrible acts done to them. They would never ask to go do it again, like, but they also say, I love my life now.

  And so I wouldn't change anything in my past. So that shows you that's healed, right? That vibration that's healed. And so, because there's only this moment. So I find conscious work powerful when you bring it to reproductive health. I want to quote our Randine Lewis friend who wrote the book, The Infertility Cure, many books, but I remember hearing her talk about when women get into a later stage of their reproductive years, especially into their forties she said, you know, at the beginning, you know, reproduction is, it's a, it's a youth game, Jing, we call it essence Jing, it's the physicality, right?

  You got to have good physicality and it, and that happens with the youth. We see it around us, right? Like, a 90 year old and a 20 year old, the same person or different [00:33:00] physically. But there's something about spiritual maturity and sometimes, and this is where it kind of ties into Dr. Jo Dispenza, matter change matter.

  So that's the physical, the Jing. And then there's energy that can change matter. And that's what we call the Shen, the spirit tapping into that consciousness. And she says, when you're younger, you can be spiritually mature because you have such good Jing, it overrides everything. And so you can be a drug addict.

  And you're 20s and getting pregnant all the time, right?

  Poorly eating, all that stuff. And then if you get into your 40s, the physicality you want, but it's not enough, you need to, as she said, have your shit together. So that's, I'm quoting her.

  And sometimes that's when we see what we call miracles. It overrides the physical.

  And you really need to do that spiritual, the spiritual maturity happens. And so, you know, have both. Add to that her excitement with donor egg back in the day when we were having this conversation was she couldn't wait to meet the Children that were born through donor egg cycles because she [00:34:00] says currently this was way back when in early 2000 people were born with either young mothers, so physically strong, spiritually immature.

  They're in their twenties, early thirties or they're born with women in the early forties. physically not as strong, but spiritually more mature. So they didn't have both. She goes, but with the donor egg cycle, they get the gene from the, the egg. So a physical, physically strong, younger woman, and they are gestated.

  And raised by spiritually mature women. It's going to be the first time where they get both strength from the physical and strength from the spiritual. So she was quite excited. It

  was a different perspective to look at the Dorae. She was like, I wonder what kind of children these are going to be, right?

  So,

  Michelle Oravitz: amazing. And actually it's really interesting. I don't know if you've seen this yourself, but sometimes the donor egg and the child looks like the mother.

  Lorne Brown: yeah, well, not surprising. I, I, I can't quote you on this, but I remember that they've done this in animals where you put him in a different, like, I don't know, [00:35:00] a donkey into a horse or something like, and it comes out looking more like the the mother. Like the, the horse. So, because don't forget you start as, you know, You know, a bunch of cells, right, you know, when you go in and you're grown, so you are influenced because you're, you're taking in in Chinese medicine talks about this, the emotional well being of the mother during pregnancy will impact the nervous system and the emotional personality of that child.

  And so what you're eating and what you're doing is helping grow that child. So we have what we call prenatal Jing, you know, for our listeners. So you get that from the mother, the father, and then. throughout pregnancy. And then postnatal Jing is what you, what happens after you're born. So your diet lifestyle.

  And so everything is impacting you up until you're born. That's what we'd call your genes. And in Chinese medicine called pre pre pregenetic destination, right?

  Prenatal, prenatal essence. I don't know if I said, if I use the right word, prenatal essence or prenatal Jing is what happens. So, yeah, I love [00:36:00] that story that she looked a little bit like the mother, not surprising.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. And I've actually seen it because I, one of them she's somebody that I'm friends with on Facebook and she's also been on the podcast, Nancy Weiss. She's a spirit baby medium, is a whole other

  Lorne Brown: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: topic. Right. But she. donor embryos and one of her daughters, she put a side by side picture of herself when she was younger and the daughter, and it was crazy. How similar they looked and then I've heard another story of somebody with freckles that she's had freckles But the mother of the donor did not and her husband did not So she always wanted a child with freckles and sure enough one of them got freckles

  Lorne Brown: Very cute. Yeah,

  And that, there's so much things we don't understand and the donor egg cycle, I don't know if you've seen this, but with my patients, they only have one regret and it's a great regret that I've always heard when I've heard any regrets, I don't hear it often, but I hear it [00:37:00] and they say that the only regret I have is that I didn't do this donor egg cycle sooner because I don't, I realized I could have been with this baby I, I waited, I, you know, cause they're doing other things and understand there's a process to come to this place where you're ready to do donor a.

  But that's a great regret. Meaning they love this baby like from day from day one implantation, right? They have this connection. They're their mother. And and. It's, it's, that's great news, right? Cause so many people understandably have to get their head around about not using their own genetic material, right?

  And when you get there, when you surrender, which is part of conscious work, right? And the resistance drops and you get into flow and receptivity, the experience can be beautiful. And then regardless, even if you don't, when that baby's born, you're like, what the heck? I've been waiting for this forever.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yes. And that's another thing. So looking at the same thing from different lenses and different perspectives, and then you can kind of think, [00:38:00] okay, I may have wanted it to go this way, but perhaps it can go another way. And I'll still get the end goal, which is really to become a mother.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, that's the end goal. And that's what we want to focus on. And from the conscious work, you know, we, we hear so often in manifestation work and in teachers of consciousness, not to be attached to form an outcome. And I'm a practical guy. So the left brain, my math background, my accounting, I'm, what I would say my feet are on the ground and my header is in the clouds, not just, you know, some people either their head in their clouds.

  So some people in our industry just head in the clouds. So it's hard to bring it to this earth or my old profession as a accountant, the feet are on the ground, right?

  I feel like I'm, I'm doing both of that. ~~And where was I going with this? What were we talking about? You'll have detaching.~~

  Michelle Oravitz: ~~Detaching from the,~~

  Lorne Brown: ~~Thank you.~~

  ~~Thank you, Michelle. There you go. My head went to the clouds. I lost it. Thank you for bringing it down. I appreciate it.~~ So. I want to share this because this worked for me. And again, I often share is, you know, it's easy to say don't attach to form an outcome. That's easy to say you're not the one that has, you want this form an outcome.

  So it's, you can't fool the universe. You can't pretend, right? Really pretend,

  but you can do [00:39:00] practices. And I have found this line and I didn't come up with this. I heard this from somebody else and I was like, brilliant. And it works for me and it's worked for hundreds of other people I've worked with this or something better.

  Yeah. I want this or something better that had such a different vibration to it because you didn't choose your desire So I will never say you can't have you can't want this You can't desire this because you didn't choose it. I I prefer chocolate ice cream over strawberry. I can't tell you why it's just it is I just like I want chocolate ice cream.

  I don't really want strawberry ice cream. It's just What is, and so, but when you have a desperate need for it, that if I can't have this, then you create resistance and that impacts the field and that cannot be healthy. But if you have a desire, you want it, but you also know you're going to be okay, whether you have it or not, that doesn't add resistance to the field.

  And so often we, cause if you get focused on has to be this way, then you're not leaving yourself open to other things that [00:40:00] can bring you that same experience. Right? Because what does the baby bring to you? Right? You know, why do you want the baby? What's it gonna bring? What's gonna be different? What are you gonna experience?

  You know this kind of work, right? Because then you could get little, I call them Drift logs or kisses on the cheek from the universe where you know what it feels like you're practicing what it feels like and it's This or this or something better and then all of a sudden it that same experience comes to you But it's a different manifestation physically.

  So you're like, oh You know getting that feeling and so you're you're starting to get it from other places as well You're experiencing it. And when I say get it from other places I want to use that loosely is you have learned to Elicit that experience inside of you and then you're starting to see it manifested on the outside so because you don't want to have to get it from the outside because again, then you're not whole and complete This whole work is about becoming whole and complete where it's cut.

  You are it's It's you're making it inside of it. You're tapped into a part of yourself higher than I guess the ego self to use that language. And then it becomes fun to [00:41:00] see if you can manifest it on the outside, but you're already experiencing the feeling. Hence it's easy not to be attached because you're already feeling the joy or the love or the nurturing of something else, right?

  And the being of service to something else, you're already bringing up that experience. So you don't need it on the outside, but then all of a sudden you see it on the outside and that just bumps it up a bit. It amplifies it. And so you get, but it's temporary, that amplification. And then when you come back to your set point, that set point is peace and joy anyhow.

  So you're good.

  Michelle Oravitz: So it's unconditional peace and joy. It doesn't have a condition on it. You choose to just have that.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: you can, and I think that that's the big thing is that people don't realize that they can actually do that. They could bring it up through just meditation and different practices that they can bring it up in themselves.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah. You tap into that. And I mean, I've, I've had that. I have glimpses. I have experiences of it. And for now the language is I'm, I'm tapping into my true nature and everybody has this true nature, your witness consciousness, your higher self, you want to give it a word. [00:42:00] And. I think we might have talked about this when I interviewed you on the Conscious Fertility podcast, but it's not all positive.

  It feels good. You still get uncomfortable feelings.

  You're just not at the full effect of them. So you experience the sadness. You can experience fear. You can experience guilt or hopelessness, but it moves through you like a song on a radio, 90 seconds, and it passes through you. And then you're back to that peace.

  And So if you're able to not get into the story and you can experience it, you still feel these uncomfortable feelings, but there's a, there's could be an underlying peace or even beauty behind some of those feelings. You're just not at the full effect of them and they just don't last for, for weeks.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. Well, the untethered soul, I think that was like a big game changer for me, that book

  Lorne Brown: Michael Singer's book. Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: Singer, he's amazing. And I think that it really was about like allowing discomfort to happen without judgment, without that kind of good or bad, that neutrality, just kind of allowing it to happen. And I have an [00:43:00] example because I burned myself. I remember it was a Friday night and I was exhausted. I was so tired. I couldn't wait to sleep. And I burned my thumb. was like, man, and it was a stupid thing. Cause I was so tired and I touched something and I knew I shouldn't have done, it was just like, without thinking. And I was like, how am I going to sleep with this burning sensation? It was like the worst feeling ever. You know, it's like when you first burn yourself. And I remember thinking to myself, maybe it was like my higher guidance, something resist the burn. So I was like, okay, let me try this. literally felt, I closed my eyes and like, I imagined myself just kind of going through the fire with my hand and almost. Accepting it, inviting it, allowing it. And literally within five minutes, the burn went away.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, and that's the quantum. That's energy changing matter and you use the awesome word resistance Right resistance is futile to quote the Borg from Star Trek

  Resistance is futile for those Trekkies out there When you add resistance basically you amplify the burn you amplify the [00:44:00] suffering or take from the Buddhist quote pain is inevitable the burn hurts Suffering is optional.

  That's where you amplify and when you can lean into it versus it's counterintuitive because we should run away from it. We think, right? And I had that similar experience in the nineties. I I had read, I read dr joe dispenses book, but I didn't understand it. I kind of read it, but Didn't catch very much of it the first read and one day when I was studying to write the exams to become a chartered accountant, a CPA I had sadness come over me real, and it was a new thing.

  I wasn't something I really experienced this kind of sadness that I could recall. And I don't know why I did this, but there's again, another part of you leading the way here. I decided to, in the middle of the day, I had shared accommodations. I was living with a female and she had Yanni and the Ghetto Blaster.

  Back in the day, it was Ghetto Blasters. with cassettes, maybe CDs. She had some incense burners. So I lit that and there was like lavender rose in it. And I went in the [00:45:00] bath and just decided to experience the sadness. So as I'm listening to the sad music, there's some incense and candle lit in the middle of the day in the bath, hot bath.

  I'm so going into the sadness. Tears are rolling down my eyes. And in a moment I'm in full bliss. Like I'm like bliss. Like. But I I don't do drugs, but what except for that psychedelic experience, what, what a good high would be like, it was like, and honestly, if that's what it feels like, I understand why people would do drugs.

  It was just bliss. And I'm like, you know, try to be sad. Because I was like, this feels great. Can I be sad? I couldn't be sad. And it was only later I had that experience first. And then I read dispenses book. Sorry, not just Ben's, Eckhart Tolle's book, Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now is what I meant.

  And the line where he says, you, when you're present, you can't suffer, because when you're regretting the past or fear in the future, you're not in the present.

  But if you're in the present, he says, even sadness can be turned into bliss. And when I read that line in the book, [00:46:00] I had my aha moment because I had that experience. And now the process that I do in my conscious work is about lowering the resistance. Somebody says, what are you doing? You're tuning into your, your wist witness consciousness.

  You mentioned Michael Singer, the untethered soul. He often says he doesn't use tools or do tools, but he kind of does. And and I have a process that I believe brings down the resistance. My experience, people, I've worked with and then you have that flow and receptivity and sometimes I just have peace.

  Maybe it's at, you know, if my, if I'm frustrated or fear, it's a seven out of 10, it'll come down to say a two or one. So peace in an unhappy situation still, right? But peace. So the resistance is low.

  Yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: flow in that moment. And it's interesting because I, my litmus test is, are you present? Really? That's the question. I, a lot of people that I work with is, are you present? Like, cause many times when they share things that are uncomfortable for them, they're not really in the present moment.

  They're either [00:47:00] expecting a future or thinking about a past or something that happens. So the present moment's always the antidote. To everything. If we

  Lorne Brown: present. And that's what the mind does. It's the nature of the mind. You can't get mad at the mind for thinking because that's its nature to be like getting upset with water for being wet, right? It's its nature. So you're fighting with reality. However, there's tools to help you get present and these uncomfortable feelings can become portals to presence.

  Right.

  And you're not wallowing them and, and embellishing them, you know, you're not inflating them. You're leaning into them and observing them. So I think what's happening, my experience, my understanding to this point is when we really get practice at noticing and observing them and accepting them, I think we're tuning, we go into present moment, but we do this by tuning into our witness consciousness because the mere fact of witnessing them, not, it shouldn't be this way.

  It's not fair, like getting into the head. But.

  Michelle Oravitz: neutral watcher.

  Lorne Brown: get into the watching, just getting practice at watching, then you [00:48:00] tune into your witness consciousness and that nature of you is peace and joy. So you tune into it. So wherever you put your energy is what's going to grow. So if you believe in the story and you're at the effect of the story, then you're You're unconscious and you're experiencing it.

  You're suffering right now. You've amplified the negative situation if you're able to observe it I'm not saying you'll like it. We're not doing a spiritual bypass here, but getting practice at observing at it I believe you tune into the witness consciousness and It's nature's peace and joy and the metaphor I use for this Michelle is when we so Tell me how this lands for you and I'm curious for your audience because this for me was my another aha moment just like what's going on here because I'm having these experiences and I want to have language to share with the people I work with.

  So if you buy an apple, you have to consciously you Michelle ego Michelle has to pick up the apple and chew it. But after that, Michelle, you're not going release salivary enzymes in your mouth. Like I got to do that. Nobody talked to me. Nobody talked to me. I'm getting acid into [00:49:00] my stomach now. Okay, I cannot.

  Walk up the stairs because my intestines are now absorbing the all these B vitamins or same thing when you sleep when you go to sleep You're unconscious. You're not breathing yourself. You're not pumping your blood Or pumping your heart circulating your blood your autonomic nervous system is doing this another part your subconscious program is doing this, right?

  The autonomic nervous system. Well same thing. I don't believe for me that I let go of these programs or emotions anymore. Not Lauren Brown ego. Just like I don't release the salivary enzyme. All I have, I believe it's my witness consciousness does this. It's what's metabolizing these uncomfortable feelings and old programs.

  And how do we do this? Well, first you have to make the unconscious conscious. So that's my notice step. Everything is neutral and then we give it meaning. Don't believe in the story. When you do, you make it real. So don't take it personally. Then I have multiple tools during the accepting part to surrender to what is, not fight it.

  Doesn't mean you're resigned to it. Doesn't mean you like it. We're just accepting that this is how I feel right now. And you [00:50:00] accept it and you start to observe it and get really, this is a skill. You get practice at observing it.

  And by that observing, you tune into the witness consciousness and it is what lets go the feelings.

  It's what metabolizes it.

  So, so.

  It's the intelligence. And so give it a conscious divine. I don't know if it's a part of me or part. I don't know. All I know is Lauren Brown is not doing it. Just like Lauren Brown gets to choose to bite the apple. Lauren Brown gets to choose to notice, not take it personally and observe it.

  That's all I do.

  The digestion of the apple is outside of my ego, my conscious mind, the digestion and the alchemy of these emotions where I was sad, went from sad to bliss. Right or go from fear to just feeling at peace. I'm not doing that I don't believe I let go of it and this ties into Michael Singers He says that these I don't know what he calls them Sankara's or something these these these energy blocks.

  They're [00:51:00] there So you're not experiencing your true nature You're all blocked up with these old programs and beliefs and feelings, but when they get released they move up and out You have this space now where you get to experience yourself. So that's how he describes it.

  Does, I mean, the, the metaphors and the concepts, yeah, the bottom line is you got to do the work you get.

  That's my point. It's nice to understand. A lot of us cannot confirm or prove anything, but when you have the experience, you don't care because the experience is peace and peace. It was nice.

  Michelle Oravitz: It is.

  Lorne Brown: I'm not at the,

  I'm not at the state, I'm not at the stage where I can equally treat fear and, and peace or fear and love together.

  Like some people say you get to a place where you don't, you don't judge either. You're, they're just vibrations. You're okay. I definitely prefer peace and joy and bliss over fear, shame, guilt, just so you know. Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: really our true default

  Lorne Brown: Yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: is in that nature and that's the Buddha [00:52:00] nature. That's kind of like

  Lorne Brown: yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: like form and we learn the other things.

  Lorne Brown: yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: habituated through habits. So bringing this into fertility, which I think is actually very relevant, even though, you know, it's kind of like this big grand concept, it could totally apply to going through IVF, going through the resistance.

  And also in the IVF, you get so focused on the numbers and the analytical, where sometimes you need to kind of. move back and allow yourself the space and the, and to really take care of your wellbeing. And that's kind of like a, my big thing about that, which always tends to kind of fall in the back burner burner.

  Lorne Brown: yeah, yeah, you're going through the journey and anyhow, so that's all thing pain is Inevitable suffering is optional. I don't think anybody would want to go through an IVF However, if you're going through it, you could go kicking and screaming and suffer through it, or you can go through it and, and not amplify the difficulties of it.

  And that, again, is a skill set, because [00:53:00] IVF is not easy. As you know, the research shows it's like getting a cancer diagnosis or terminal diagnosis, infertility. So I want to clarify that we're not dismissing it. The conscious work is about being authentic. It's actually about feeling your feelings.

  However, with a different lens and developing a skill set, a process, so you can metabolize it, right?

  But yeah, if you're going to go on this journey, if you're in this journey, you didn't choose it, but you're in it. And so how do you use it as, as they say in the conscious teachings, how do you make it as, how is this happening for you versus to you? What does that mean? How do I get out of victim mode?

  Because it doesn't serve you to being accountable, responsible. What does that mean? Accountable responsible does not mean you blame yourself or you blame other accountable. Responsible means that if you're having the experience, then that's all you need to know that you're responsible for healing it because you're the one having the experience.

  If you if you it wasn't your responsibility, then you wouldn't be having that experience. And there's so many experiences [00:54:00] happening around the world at one time, and each individual is only aware of so many the ones that they're aware of that are triggering them that they're experiencing.

  That's, that's all you need to know that that means you're accountable, responsible for that. The stuff that's happening around the world that doesn't trigger you, it's not your responsibility to do the inner work around it.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. Well, I mean, I can keep talking to you forever and of course we just talked about one subject, so perhaps I'll bring you back for other ones as well. But this is this is definitely the kind of thing that I'm very interested in and I nerd out on this all the time. It really is something I think about every single day. I think that it is when you really are bringing up your consciousness and becoming more aware in your life and. Really being the creator of your life or owning that you are a creator in your life I just think it brings another element of purpose and meaning everything.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah. We all want to be happy. And we think different things outside of us will make us happy. This work brings that kind of [00:55:00] happiness. And if, to kind of wrap this part up on consciousness from the materialistic and then the quantum perspective, you know, when we, when we're unconscious, or when we're in that state of fear, we don't feel safe, right?

  Then our body goes into survival mode, right? The fight or flight. And so, our resources are not available for healing. creativity and reproduction because they're in survival mode, you know, blood gets drained from the, the thinking brain goes, the blood gets drained from the digestion reproduction.

  And so, but when you feel safe, which is what conscious work is, so here's on the material level, you free up resources for healing, creativity, reproduction. And we know this, that the unsafe hormones of cortisol. and adrenaline and epinephrine, all those things affect inflammation, the body, the effect, your immune system, your hormonal system, your gut microbiome.

  And when you feel safe, you're releasing the serotonin, the dopamine oxytocin, and they turn on and off genes for health and [00:56:00] reproduction. So that's the material level. And then on the quantum level, there's more of this world that meets the eye and you have multiple stories. And I have stories of women where it doesn't make sense on the material Newtonian.

  medical, current medical research

  that this woman is going to get pregnant based on her age, based on her FSH, AMH, based on her history. And then they go ahead and it happens, right? And that's where dispenses energy changes matter. It's instantaneous or Randine says the Shen is key here. And that's where you tune in.

  And I, and I want to clarify, I'm not saying, Oh, if you do conscious work, you'll get pregnant. Absolutely not. Just sharing that. Miracles can happen or shifts can happen. And what I have found is people get to a place where they're okay. Whether they're going, they have baby or not, they know they're okay.

  And that means they have the flow and receptivity. So they feel happy. They still want the baby, but they're no longer in that state of desperation. They're no longer putting up the resistance that could be interfering [00:57:00] with that flow and receptivity, which would be supportive of a. Healthy pregnancy.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, and it really comes down to the state of being and that state of flow. And so again, you were saying, you know about how it's not about taking out the things that are uncomfortable for us And that's really the yin and yang balance having both, you know The differences and then having them be harmonious and work together and flow I think ultimately it's like I always say it like when you're in flow things start to work out you're coasting

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, well people, resources tend to flow to you when you're in flow and receptivity. When you're, when the resistance is low and you have flow and receptivity, things tend to flow to you. And we know in electrical systems that when there's stagnate, there's resistance, we call it Qi stagnation in Chinese medicine,

  Michelle Oravitz: our bodies. Yeah.

  Lorne Brown: the energy flows slower and it heats up the system in a bad way.

  And when the resistance is low in an electrical system, the energy flows

  better. So we're electrical, chemical, magnetic beings. And so when our resistance is up, we call it cheese [00:58:00] stagnation, call it resistance. You don't feel the flow and receptivity. We call it stress in the West. And when you are able to do the work to metabolize, to have that alchemy where you're changing these old programs that don't serve you or the, or metabolizing these uncomfortable feelings then the resistance drops and now you have flow and receptivity.

  Your energy flows better.

  Michelle Oravitz: For sure. So Lauren, this is a great conversation. I definitely feel like we connect on many levels and I think it's really fun to be able to talk to somebody about this kind of work, especially somebody who's a colleague of mine and somebody I look up to. I think that you do a lot of great work. By the way, he also has healthy seminars, which is like a whole list or database of many courses for us.

  A born members. Within the fertility world. So he has a lot background in this work. thank

  Lorne Brown: Thank you.

  Michelle Oravitz: Lauren, for coming on. And if you can also share how people can find you through your website

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, two ways. And [00:59:00] then on that you can find Instagram and all this stuff. There's the Accubalance website and it's with one C Accubalance. ca. The ca stands for Canada for my American listeners Accubalance. ca. Or the laurenbrown. com will have links to stuff as well. And Lauren is spelled L O R N E so laurenbrown.

  com and obviously I also want to direct you both sites will have links to it, but the The conscious fertility podcast has lots of talks around consciousness and, and also around fertility as well. Like guests like Michelle are on there. And so, I do invite you to listen to the conscious fertility podcast.

  We put out usually once a week episodes.

  Michelle Oravitz: Awesome. Well, Lauren, this is a great conversation. I knew it was going to be, cause I met you last week and we had a great conversation last week too. thank you so much for coming on today.

  Lorne Brown: Thank you very much, Michelle.[01:00:00] [01:01:00]

Ep 330 Why Your Nervous System May Hold the Key to Conception

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive into why your nervous system may hold the key to conception. We all know how stress can impact fertility, but did you know that your nervous system plays a direct role in reproductive function? I’ll break down how chronic stress and nervous system dysregulation affect hormone balance, digestion, and overall well-being.

In this episode, I’ll also explore the yin and yang dynamics of the nervous system through the lens of Traditional Chinese Medicine and share practical strategies to restore balance, enhance relaxation, and support your fertility naturally.

Key takeaways:

• Chronic stress can put the body into survival mode, diverting energy away from reproduction.

• A harmonious balance between action (yang) and rest (yin) is essential for optimal fertility and overall well-being.

• Stress impacts digestion, which in turn affects fertility. The vagus nerve plays a key role in restoring balance.

• Proper sleep helps regulate hormones, maintain circadian rhythms, and support menstrual health.

• Practices like yoga, qigong, breathwork, grounding, and acupuncture help shift the body into a restorative state conducive to conception.

• The heart-uterus connection in Traditional Chinese Medicine highlights the role of oxytocin in conception and reproductive health.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] [00:01:00] 

  Michelle Oravitz: Welcome back to the wholesome fertility podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orobitz. And today I'm going to be talking about something absolutely crucial for fertility.

  And you may have not guessed this, but it's your nervous system. We all know how stress can impact fertility, but did you know that your nervous system plays a direct role in reproductive function for both men and women? Today, we'll cover how nervous system dysregulation affects fertility, why stress hormones like cortisol disrupt reproductive balance, and how to regulate your nervous system to boost your fertility. And because I love blending Western science and traditional Chinese medicine, we'll [00:02:00] also explore the yin and yang dynamics of the nervous system and how keeping these energies in balance is key for optimal fertility. So let's dive in.

  So first I'm going to talk about the autonomic nervous system, and it is basically what is hidden in the background, taking care of your body at all times, whether you're conscious of it or not.

  So for short, we can call it ANS. So the ANS controls involuntary functions like heart rate, digestion, and reproductive function. It has two main branches. One is called the sympathetic nervous system, and you may have heard this referred to as the fight or flight.

  And the other is the parasympathetic nervous system, and that is considered the rest and digest. So if you want to think of this as the yin and yang, the yang is more active and it would be more of the fight or flight. Which isn't a bad thing 'cause you know, everything that we have in our [00:03:00] bodies are there for a reason.

  And the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest, would be considered more of a yin, which is more in its potential and it's more calm and inert. So when these two systems are in balance, everything works really well, and ultimately we need both in order to survive. And that is why it's there in the first place.

  But when stress takes over and the body shifts into survival mode, then this is considered more chronic stress. It's something that happens all the time. So we're not meant to have this So fight or flight mode happen chronically, we're meant to have it to take us out of danger, but we're not always in danger and we'll still feel it because of our stressful thoughts or stressful situations in our life will cause us to feel like we need to survive.

  So when this happens chronically, it creates a sympathetic nervous system in overdrive and this can directly [00:04:00] impact fertility.

  So just to recap on the yin and yang, if you haven't heard about this before, the yin is a more feminine, quiet, calm state. And it's more receptive. It's cooling. It is considered the moon, whereas the yang is the sun. It's more active.

  It moves a lot. It moves quickly. It is more the fight or flight. It has a yang energy and the yang could be more heating. So like I said, it was, more representative of the sun and mobilizes energy for action.

  Generally, although fight or flight and rest and digest are just one examples that have yin and yang qualities, we have yin and yang aspects of our bodies really for everything. And in order for our bodies to thrive in general, the yin and yang have to have a harmonious state.

  So they need to work together as a couple. And when that happens in a harmonious balanced [00:05:00] state, that is when we thrive. And you can think about it as homeostasis. The body likes homeostasis and homeostasis is really vital in order for our bodies to thrive.

  So we can also look at actions that we're doing. If we're doing things that are too young, too active, like type A personality type of thing, where we have to get everything done, everything on the checklist has to get done, and we're not really taking time out for the rest and digest, or for time to just get more.

  restorative, restorative sleep, restorative rest, or do things that are less action oriented. When we don't have that balance, then we go into a more overdrive aspect of the young, and that can burn us out.

  And it's important to know that when we get into a survival mode, our bodies and our minds are not focused on any kind of creativity whatsoever because we have to survive and the body's always going to favor survival over [00:06:00] reproduction. So if reproductive energy needs energy, then it's going to basically tap.

  It's kind of like our savings account. And the body, if it's really depleted, it's going to tap into the savings account and use that for survival, which means that it's taking energy away from reproduction. And when energy is being taken away from reproduction, then it's not going to reproduce because that is not priority.

  The priority is survival. So, Having this chronically can really, really wreck havoc on your hormone balance and really impact so many different systems. It can impact how you sleep. When people feel really stressed. Then they're going to have a really hard time falling asleep because their nervous system is constantly wired and ready.

  You know, when we're in a survival mode, we're not going to want to sleep too deeply because look at our ancestors. If they knew that they were in danger. [00:07:00] They were going to be a lot more awake. You see a lot of cats with their ears open. Their nervous system is very receptive to any kind of noise. So small noises can wake us up and we're not going to be in a state where we can just let go and feel safe.

  And ultimately being in the rest and digest mode really means feeling more safe. Another thing to consider is the fact that our rest and digest mode, I mean, based on the actual description of that means that it's restorative, the rest, but it also helps digestion. So we know that high stress that is chronic can lead to

  issues with digestion. So Our digestive health is incredibly important when it comes to fertility health. In Chinese medicine, we look at the spleen and the stomach as a pair. And those organs are actually, even though the spleen in Western medicine is more something that works on our immune system, which the spleen and stomach do to some extent, [00:08:00] because when our digestive health is really healthy, our bodies have enough energy to fight off any outside impacts.

  any disease, really. So it gives us the energy that we need. So we need our digestive system to work properly in order to nourish our bodies so that our bodies are able to get energy. Plus it also, with a healthy digestive system, you have less inflammation and a lot of imbalances with the digestive system or even our gut microbiome can impact.

  autoimmune conditions or our immunity and have it a little more hyperactive because there's chronic low grade inflammation at all times. So those are things that are actually really, really important. And as we know, chronic stress can impact our digestive system. So we have a relationship really between the brain and the gut is absolutely real And it is mediated by something called the vagus nerve. 

  And that is a cranial nerve that is in [00:09:00] charge and actually having it stimulated can impact your heart rate and it can impact your digestive system. SoSo it has a direct communication between the brain and it has a direct communication to the enteric nervous system.

  Michelle Oravitz: So the enteric nervous system is basically our digestive nervous system. it runs from your mouth all the way down to your anus. So it's basically your whole digestive system has its own nervous system. And this is called the enteric nervous system. So your thoughts and your emotions and your emotional state can indirectly impact your nervous system of your gut through the vagus nerve.

  So your thoughts and emotional state and stress levels can impact your gut health through the nervous system.

  And of course, if your sleep is impacted, this is going to cause your hormones to get impacted because sleep helps restoration. It also helps deplete excess hormones and balance [00:10:00] hormones altogether. It also impacts our circadian rhythm. And for women, this is really important when it comes to their menstrual cycle, because our circadian rhythm, which is our 24 hour clock also impacts our infradian rhythm, which is the 28 to 29 day cycle, which is our menstrual cycle.

  And when it comes to Chinese medicine, our heart health or heart state is really, really important when it comes to fertility health, it has a direct line of communication. And a really,a direct vessel to the uterus, which through something called the bow my channel.

  And this is really important for conception. So many times when our hearts are not in the right place, then it can impact really how our uterus and our womb reacts. So it is one of the really most important things is really connecting to that heart center. And also we know that the love hormone oxytocin increases around ovulation and it increases [00:11:00] after intercourse.

  So we know that there is something to that. It has to be there for a reason if it has a role to play in conception. Although this aspect has not really been studied as much in depth.  

  We know that it wouldn't be there unless it had played a role. And

  Most of the studies done on oxytocin really are geared towards labor and the body going into labor. So we know that if that's the case, and in Chinese medicine, the heart opens the uterus, that's its role. Then perhaps the heart opening the uterus opens it in labor, but perhaps it also opens it in receiving new life. Because as we can see, the levels increase around time. which is optimal time of conception around ovulation. And after a woman has an orgasm, it also increases for men as well. But in this case, I'm talking more about women because it has a role on the womb.

  So in cases of men, [00:12:00] their sperm health can get impacted by a dysregulated nervous system. So it's important for men to also have The proper rest and proper nervous system balance. So we also know that with men it is important to have the Yin and Yang balance as well. When it comes to overall, you know, Yang is more of a male energy and they do have a lot of that heat.

  But also the sperm is really surrounded by Yin fluids. So it is very Yin also in nature, even though it's very quick swimming. So it's important for both to be in balance for men as well. So again, going back to the nervous system, we're thinking about something that's active, but something that is also restorative and having those two opposites in balance.

  So a couple of things that you can do to balance the nervous system, and this can be done for both the men and the women, is to do things like yoga or qigong, because [00:13:00] with moving the body, you're able to really restore a state of balance. safety in the body and where the body feels safe, it has more energy for its creativity.

  So the body's creativity is fertility, but the same thing happens with the mind. When the mind is in chronic stress, the last thing it thinks about is creating and innovating. And usually when the mind feels safe, it will be more open we'll have more energy to create.

  So another thing that can be done is grounding. Grounding is incredibly calming and it also calms the nervous system because most of the time it's done outside. Although you can get a grounding mat if need be, which is something that you can purchase online, and you can use indoors.

  Grounding has an impact to regulate your circadian rhythm. It also helps you sleep really well at night. And it also has an impact on lowering inflammation on the body. This is scientifically proven and there's research on [00:14:00] this and there's studies about this and it's pretty amazing.

  It also decreases the time for wound healing, which means that it heals the body really quickly. Native Americans have always talked about why it is so important and actually that the body can become sick if it doesn't ground. So grounding is incredibly important and one of the things that is often missed these days because we have rubber soles and our feet don't really have many opportunities to ground into the earth.

  And what grounding really means is having your feet touch the earth, whether it's sand, dirt, or grass. An opportunity where it's able to touch the earth directly. And by doing so, It actually impacts your body's electromagnetic frequency.

  Another thing that can be done besides yoga and qigong is also breath work. Breath work also has a direct impact on the mind. When your mind is nervous or stressed out, you typically will have that [00:15:00] reflect in your breath by being short what happens is when we're more relaxed, we actually breathe slower and deeper.

  So by breathing slower and deeper, you're actually able to impact the body. and create and induce a more calming effect immediately.

  And also by using belly breath, you can use the diaphragm. So it's diaphragmatic breathing, which can also impact your nervous system and calm it down. Something else you can do is humming. And by humming, you're creating a certain vibration that can impact your vagus nerve.

  So it basically stimulates the vagus nerve which can also have a very calming effect on your nervous system.

  You can also listen to music. So the sound vibration in certain types of music, not all music can have a very calming effect on your nervous system. And examples for that are solfeggio frequencies [00:16:00] and even sound bowls

  and even classical music. So those are sounds that can create more coherence and order in your mind and your body. Something else that you can do is also do some heart math exercises. Heart math institute is something that I would definitely suggest looking into.

  And what they study is the connection between the heart and the brain. And when your nervous system is more calm, it shows. And when your heart brain coherence has increased, there's more coherence and order and that induces a state of more calm and a more restorative state in your body.

  And of course I am very biased, but, I am very big on acupuncture, which is really how I got into it. I started out as a patient myself and acupuncture, the practice of acupuncture and getting treatments for acupuncture can be incredibly beneficial for your nervous system.

  It is so powerful isbecause it gets you into a state of deep relaxation. [00:17:00] And when you're able to deeply relax, your body is able to restore itself and regenerate and repair.

  So on that topic, one of the ways that it does that is using ear points, but you can actually use your fingers and massage your own ears because your whole body is reflected in your ears. You could do the same thing for your feet as well. And I would suggest also starting out a really nice sleep hygiene routine, which means lowering lights about an hour to two hours before you go to sleep.

  That is going to help restore your sleep. The more sleep you get, the more calm and at ease your nervous system is going to be. So those are my tips for calming and restoring your nervous system.

  So that concludes my tips on balancing your nervous system. and I hope that this episode shed some light on how intertwined our nervous system is with our fertility health And why it's so important to [00:18:00] nurture a balanced nervous system state.

  If you have any questions and have any ideas for future episodes. Feel free to reach out to me on instagram and my handle is at the wholesome lotus fertility

  I'm very active on instagram. So that is the best way to find me

  so thank you so much for tuning in today. Have a beautiful day. [00:19:00] 

EP 329 Enhancing Fertility Naturally: Yoga, Breathwork, and Mindfulness

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Kerry Hinds @fertilebodyyoga, founder of Fertile Body Yoga, who shares her inspiring fertility journey and how yoga became an essential part of her path to motherhood. Kerry opens up about her struggles with infertility, navigating IVF abroad, and ultimately conceiving naturally after stepping away from treatments. She also discusses the benefits of fertility yoga for calming the nervous system, enhancing blood flow, and creating a supportive environment for conception.

In this episode, you’ll learn how yoga can help balance your nervous system, why feeling safe is essential for fertility, and practical ways to integrate fertility yoga into your daily routine. This heartfelt conversation is filled with wisdom, hope, and practical tips for anyone on their fertility journey.

Guest Bio:

Kerry Hinds @fertilebodyyoga is a certified E-RYT, RPYT, Relax and Renew® teacher, fertility yoga instructor, and Reiki practitioner. She founded Fertile Body Yoga to support individuals on their fertility journeys. Drawing from her personal experiences with fertility challenges, including undergoing treatments and experiencing pregnancy loss, Kerry offers compassionate guidance to her students. She leads weekly fertility yoga classes and provides various mind-body support programs through the Fertile Body Yoga Virtual Studio. Kerry is also the host of the "Fringe Fertility" podcast, where she explores holistic and alternative approaches to enhancing fertility.

Websites/Social Media Links:

Learn more about Kerry Hinds
Follow Kerry Hinds on Instagram
Listen to her podcast: The Fringe Fertility

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  # TWF: Kerry Hinds

  [00:00:00] Episode number 329 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is Carrie Hines. Carrie is the owner and founder of Fertile Body Yoga, a virtual yoga studio that is dedicated to supporting women navigating their fertility journey. She offers both live stream and on demand fertility yoga classes.

  and small group programs that embrace the complete journey physically, mentally, emotionally, energetically, spiritually, and socially. Carrie has been teaching yoga for over 20 years and has been specializing, teaching, and training almost solely fertility yoga for eight years. Her classes and offerings are informed by her own experiences with pregnancy loss, years of IVF, and eventually completing her family with two children.

  Carrie has supported thousands of women on their fertility journey so far and is on a mission to help women conceive and birth with yoga and community. Carrie also [00:01:00] hosts Fringe Fertility, a podcast that highlights supportive fertility practices beyond the doctor's office.

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast. Carrie. I'm so happy to have you.

  Kerry: Thanks for having me, Michelle. I'm so happy to be here and spend some time with you today.

  Michelle: Yes. I would love for you to share your story first of all I love fertility yoga. I always suggest for my patients and my clients to do it It's something that I've personally myself have been really transformed by yoga in general. Many different types of yoga, a huge believer in it. And I also think that it's a, I call it an intelligent exercise.

  It's something that's been around for thousands of years and [00:02:00] really is a medicine in its own. So I would love for you to share your story and how you personally went through your own journey, but also how you combine fertility with yoga.

  Kerry: Okay. Yeah. I'll try and be a little bit concise cause I could go on and on for the, for a long time about this topic. But you know, as many listeners out there, you know, I didn't really start thinking about having kids till I was in my mid thirties. I took me a while to find the person I wanted to share my DNA with.

  Right. So when I did, we got married we moved to Germany and We went to Germany with the intention of this would be a good time for me to have kids. He's going to do his PhD. Germany has so many great social supports for families and so on. So we're like, Oh, it's just skim the cream off the top of that social system.

  And so when we got there, as often [00:03:00] happens, things don't go as planned when it comes to fertility. So we rolled into IUI. So we tried for six months, we found a clinic and. You know, we lived in old Eastern Germany, so it was hard to find English speaking doctors. So it was a very interesting time of my life.

  Not only was it just stressful in general dealing with what's going on and is this ever going to happen to living in another culture, another country? I didn't have a ton of support around, but then trying to navigate a new language that I was not fluent in. at all. So, I, you know, had one amazing friend there who spoke fluent, fluent German, American woman.

  And she's like,I will help you. And she went into those appointments with me,

  Michelle: oh

  Kerry: did all the

  Michelle: What a great friend

  Kerry: I know, I know. It was so amazing because I was so [00:04:00] lost at that time trying to figure out, like, just what's going on, but then how to say it in a different language or understand it in a different language.

  So for anybody who's doing this,

  fertility journey overseas or is here in North America It's not your mother tongue English, and you're trying to figure it out, I see you, I understand how this can add an extra level of stress to it. So we. You know, during that time, I actually went and did a yoga teacher training cause I was like, this isn't working. I want to do something for myself. So let's go get a yoga teacher training.

  I'd actually been teaching yoga for years before this was, so I've been teaching yoga for 20 years far before, This, you know, all these 200 hour yoga teacher trainings that, you know, you can sign up for one. No problem now. But back then it was your teacher [00:05:00] tapped you on the shoulder and said, Hey, do you want to be like, let's do this.

  And so that's kind of how I started yoga. But then when I was in Germany, I was like, okay, I need to, let's make this legit, right? Let's go get the training. I love it. I was teaching in Germany and so on. So that was sort of the, the main integration of the yoga into the fertility journey was just taking that bigger step to get the certification.

  And then, yeah, we went, we did IUIs. The first IUI was successful in that I got pregnant and, you know, 10 week ultrasound, there was no heartbeat. So we lost that baby. Yeah, and it was again, different culture, different bedside manners, different, it was just so stark. That's the word I could use for it.

  Shocking. It was just like, okay. The baby has no heartbeat. We're booking you in tomorrow for a DNC. Be there at 6 a. m. [00:06:00] You know, there was no time to, to, to absorb what was, to breathe, to figure out what I wanted. it was just like this snowball that was just like, okay, this has happened. You're going to do this.

  You're going to be better than you're going to start again. And you're going to keep trying and trying. So that's a whole other rabbit hole we could go down. But yeah, it was, it was a lot. It was a lot. And so we ended up going to do IVF, and this was, you know, 15 years ago. So things were maybe a little different than they are now.

  LikeICSI was just sort of a, more of a thing, right? It's Ooh, we're going to do this new cool thing. ICSI. I was like, okay. And they're like, and then there's embryo glue and we'll glue your embryo to your uterus. And it was all cutting edge at this time. And We did it. We did many cycles frozen cycles fresh cycles.

  Yeah, so many cycles and [00:07:00] nothing stuck, right? We had been doing IVF for two years and we kind of just paused and said, Is this, do we want to keep doing this?is this how we envision our life to be? And we wanted kids for sure, but we also wanted to start living our lives again. So that was a very pivotal moment in our journey is when we stepped away from IVF.

  We said, okay, we're done. I had gained weight. I wasn't feeling like myself. My body was weirdly puffy in different places and just, I was unhappy and I was emotional and I was just like, let's. Let's, let's walk away. And I remember my fertility doctor at the time, he said, you know, your chances of getting pregnant naturally are like one in a hundred million.

  Like you shouldn't be walking away from IVF. And I was like, you know, I'm okay. Like [00:08:00] I just, I need a break. And I walked away and a month and a half later I was pregnant.

  Michelle: Wow

  Kerry: intervention. And then nine months postpartum, I also was pregnant again by accident because we thought we had our miracle baby, right?

  So we were like, okay, whatever. And then I was pregnant again and through the whole journey, I was using yoga for my body, but more so for my energetic health, my mental, emotional health. So when we ended up coming back to the U S and moving to Boston, that was one of the first things I did. I did a prenatal yoga teacher training and I said, Hey, can we do fertility yoga?

  And she's like,I don't, I'm sure. I have no idea what it is. Tell me what it is. I'm like, either do I, but I'll get back to you. And that's sort of how the fertility yoga started. And [00:09:00] nobody was really doing it eight years ago. It was,

  Michelle: It's true

  Kerry: Like, there was nothing. There was a few people, there was a couple books out on it but I really spent a lot of time explaining.

  what it was that we were trying to do when we were doing like a fertility focused yoga practice. So that's kind of the story. That's the evolution.

  Michelle: Well, I love the story. I don't love that you went through the suffering through the story But I love the fact that you can it Prove with your story that when people tell you when you hear from doctors that you have one in a million chance or whatever that is, that is not necessarily the truth.

  That is their opinion. They say it very factually, and I think that that's where it gets very confusing for people. They say it very factually, and I'm not dismissing what doctors say because a lot of times it could be very accurate or they can, but I, I, what I don't love is Is when things are predicted because the body can be [00:10:00] so unpredictable.

  And it can also show so many signs that defy what it's going to do. So that's where, you know, I say just have an open mind or getting a second opinion is great. So, but I do love hearing those stories because I think when people who are going through that now and are probably listening to fertility podcasts because they want to get.

  Answers and hear other people's stories and when they hear stories like that it sparks some hope in their hearts So I think that that's really important

  Kerry: Yeah, I often get Students they'll ask me well what was it like right because this is what we want This is people don't want to do IVF if they don't have to and they're like, what was it? what happened and I was like, I cannot tell you I can't tell you a hundred percent that it was the yoga that I was doing or you know All the other lifestyle changes I was doing but something came [00:11:00] together You magically all together at the right time and this baby happened and if I had to choose one word for it, it would be exhale because there was this feeling that my body was no longer having to perform like it felt safe because I wasn't

  going in for you know, all these procedures and like they're.

  You know, minimally invasive, but you're still like vaginal ultrasounds and people poking around down there and all the operations that come with it. Anesthesia, all those sorts of things. And yeah, it's, it's a lot. So my body was like, whew, thank you. Thank you. Let me just be. And I think the mental piece was just like that.

  I wasn't going to go back to it. At least anytime soon. So my, my body was actually believing [00:12:00] me, right? And I don't think it's It's something that you can fake. It's not a time, like I had to go through those two years of IVF and pregnancy loss to get to that point. I don't think that there's we can't just kind of skip over it and be like, Oh, I'm just going to think this now and I'm going to get pregnant naturally.

  So it's a process. That's it. you know, everybody's journey is different and we just need to give ourselves a little bit of space sometimes to integrate what's going on and give our bodies that exhale, which is so important. Mm.

  Michelle: I love that you say that because actually exhaling longer can simulate your, parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest mode, which many times the majority of us in response to life are in the fight or flight mode. And especially when we feel unsafe.

  And I love that you use the word safe because when we feel unsafe, Then [00:13:00] we're really not in a creative mode. We don't create even like mentally when we're not feeling safe.

  Kerry: Yeah.

  Michelle: When we feel safe, we're able to create, we're able to let go and our body's able to create, and that's a, it's a state of growth. So I love that you talk about that.

  And I think that one of the commonalities between yoga and acupuncture, which actually they're related in

  many ways. And because it's really about moving the energy because yoga is connected to Ayurveda. Ayurveda has Marma points and yoga is actually a branch of Ayurveda. it's part of the medicine of the physicality of the body and moving the energy.

  Kerry: Yep.

  Michelle: Qigong is sort of the yoga of Chinese medicine. So it's very related. And I think one of the biggest commonalities or one of the ways I think it really works is it's all about the nervous system.

  Kerry: 100 percent it, the nervous system. Like when I, [00:14:00] even these days I, when I'm talking to somebody, I'm like, I'm talking to a person. Yes. But I'm interacting with a nervous system. So with the words that I'm saying my body language or how I look at them, right? Like it, it all is interacting with third nervous system.

  So how are we working with nervous systems? And when we show up, in fertility world supporting people. For me, the huge part of fertility yoga is how do we harness this parasympathetic, I call it rest, digest and reproduce. That's what I call it, just

  Michelle: Yeah. I love that. Yes.

  Kerry: Because what it is, it

  Michelle: Yup.

  Kerry: It's what yoga is so good at, sadly, right? Like our Western culture view of yoga has been a little focused almost exclusively on exercise and gymnastic style yoga. But [00:15:00] really traditionally, like you said, it was about the marma. It was about the energetic lines running through you and wherever you find that imbalance, you can work with the energetic field to create balance again.

  And as you know, the Marma points and acupuncture and pressure points are like following very similar lines and it's powerful. But it's subtle, right?

  Michelle: Right. it's

  Kerry: explain. Yeah, like it's hard to explain exactly what's happening but it is, it's so powerful and it can really be transformative for how we, how we navigate the journey as embracing that, the quiet side, the quiet side of things.

  Michelle: Yes. And I think that the way we connect with it is through feeling. Right. Because that is ultimately how we do it, but we can't feel or pay attention to what we're feeling when we're distracted all the time by the noise of the world. So we're constantly disrupted by the [00:16:00] noise. It's very disrupting actually for our nervous system.

  We don't realize it because we're so used to it. You could be used to things that are really not healthy for you and listen, you know, hearing the outside noise. And the loud noises of construction, you know, the normal life, if you're living in the city, the constant sirens and honking, and, you know, those things are actually very taxing on the nervous system.

  And they put us in a fight or flight mode because our bodies don't really recognize them isn't in the natural world. So it stimulates a more fight and flight response. So having that counter balance with practices like yoga. In calming the nervous system. And what I love about yoga is that it includes breath, all the things that really stimulate the vagus nerve mantra sound.

  So you're able to tune your vibration and breath. Which is also very calming because if you exhale longer, like there's certain controlled breath [00:17:00] where you're able to control your brain through breath and even movement, somatic energy work and emotions that we can at least much more easily, like that control, but manage with our

  bodies.

  Kerry: Yeah. I couldn't say it better myself, Michelle. That was perfect. I think one thing, right, like we, we, we know that the fertility journey is stressful. We know that life is stressful. We know that we're probably living in a heightened state in our sympathetic more than we, we would like to.

  And yeah, the yoga piece can just. hit so many things. And one thing we need to remember is that we are created like evolutionarily are, you know, we are more attuned to the stresses, right? For survival. So the loud, the loud noises, it [00:18:00] alerts us to look around and see, Oh, is there something coming for me?

  Or the bright lights and things like that. Like we're just constantly Like our bodies are looking out to keep us safe all the time. And we're tuned to that, right, that our bodies are naturally tuned to go in that direction. And there's way more stimuli that will take us that way. And then with the other side, the parasympathetic, we have to work harder and more intentionally to go there.

  And I think that is one of the things that is the hardest is you actually need to train the system to be more fluid. It's not the stress isn't going to go away. Stress isn't going to go away, but if you are training your nervous system to float more evenly back and forth between the two and taking the time to go parasympathetic as best that you can, whether it's with the breath or [00:19:00] with yoga or going for a walk in nature or anything like that You're rebalancing, but we have to make more effort that is just the way we're, we're built.

  And yeah, like things that will help us be calmer are like dim lights,

  quietude, support. So like lying down flat. So our body doesn't have to be alert, like even sitting, we have to be alert.

  So we might not fall over weight. Unless you're claustrophobic, of course so yeah, there's lots of things that we can add, and yoga does that.

  Restorative yoga, which is a huge piece of how I teach fertility yoga it, that is what it does. those are the things that we're embracing when we do restorative yoga.

  Michelle: I love restorative yoga.

  Kerry: Me too.

  Michelle: Oh, it feels so good. It really just feels so good. And you know what? I love to. I remember taking a yoga class and the teacher after we're laying in Shavasana said, allow the ground to support [00:20:00] you. And I'm like, just the thought of that changes. My experience laying down right now

  Kerry: Yes. Yes I say that too in my yoga classes or I'm like the earth is coming up to hold you and you Let the earth hold you like it's like a two way street. It's like here I am I'm here, but you need to let go into it too. Yeah, it, there's so many wonderful things about restorative yoga. I mean, it's not the only part of fertility yoga the way I teach it, but it is definitely a huge part of what I like to emphasize to help train the nervous system that like,

  Oh, Oh, I remember this place of calm and safety, right?

  And then if we can condition it with at the beginning of every Shavasana or every restorative yoga pose, you do three big, deep breaths, long exhales. The body then starts to put it all together. and [00:21:00] say, Oh, when she takes three big, long, deep breaths, it's time to relax. It's time to release and let go.

  So we can, there's so much we could do to support ourselves on that level, I think. But yeah, society makes it hard.

  Michelle: Right, so it's almost like a triggering relaxation response To something that you repeat over and over again I always say likeif you do meditation and you burn a specific incense That's clean or something that I'm even in the central oil Like diffuse a specific one every single time you start to meditate you're immediately going to It's almost like pavlov's dog.

  You're always going to associate it with meditation time and our scent brings us Right there because it's so connected our olfactory nerve, which is really responsible for our sense of smell Is connected to our brains directly

  Kerry: Yeah. And certain smells will be more grounding and, you know, so choose your smells. wisely, I would say, you know, where like,citrus [00:22:00] and high notes are a little bit more stimulating where like the deeper tones like sandalwood and like the earthy green trees, those sorts of things can just be really calming.

  And then plus the volatile oils that are in evergreen trees are calming to the nervous system.

  Michelle: Yeah. It's not amazing.

  Kerry: You know, so why not put those in your diffuser like use all the tools that you can and and and then things smell good

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Kerry: like

  I just

  Michelle: who doesn't like that?

  Kerry: Yeah Yeah,

  Michelle: That's awesome. So just take people through, likeif they've never really heard of fertility yoga, like what differentiates fertility yoga from regular yoga

  or other types of yoga?

  Kerry: Whoo. So the first I would say are the people that are in the class so it is just really dedicated to holding space for those that are trying to conceive and it can be anybody from, Oh, I'm just [00:23:00] thinking about it, but I, my periods have been a little weird all my life. I just want to get in tune with my body to those who have, you know, eighth round of IVF, like really deep into the journey.

  So I think the community piece is really important because, People like to be seen and understood. And when we do a check in at the beginning of our classes, even though it's online and there's all these little squares and so on on the Zoom room, people, you see people nodding and oh, and like sending hearts and doing all the things.

  And just creating community around that as opposed to if you went to a regular yoga class and you walked up to your teacher and said, Oh, by the way, I'm doing a stim cycle right now. They're not going to know what to do with you. They're not going to know how to keep you safe, nor are they going to know how to nurture that part of the cycle.

  So that's the 2nd piece is. Becoming or recognizing [00:24:00] where you are in your cycle and then matching the energies of that time. So follicular phase is a little more. Woo woo, woo hoo, right? Springtime, and follicles are growing, you have more energy because of the hormones, and an ovulation, you're just like the queen bee, right?

  So these are the energies that we would say, okay, if you're in the follicular phase, you're gonna do this twist, and so on, and blah blah blah. And then you would say, okay, oh, you're in the luteal phase, things are a little quieter, You might be pregnant, you're in the two week wait, you're post transfer, you're stimming, like all these things, then we need to be a little quieter with the body and give the pelvic area a little bit more space.

  So we would work with that and do some modifications for that. So really following the cycle. So when I'm teaching, I'm constantly, Okay, if you're in the follicular phase, you're going to do this. If you're in the luteal phase, you're going to [00:25:00] do this. So not only am I keeping people safe, but I'm also like finding the nourishing pieces as well.

  So it's like,I'm boosting that energy and keeping you safe where you wouldn't be able to do that in a regular class. And then the movement piece. Is really just like slow flow, somatic movement, a lot of it's pelvic centered, but not always because we hold tension and all different places in our body, the chakra system, the energetic system, right?

  We want it flowing as well as possible for many reasons. So it's lots of ooey gooey, juicy sort of moves in and around the pelvis. So what else did I forget? Oh, and of course the yoga wisdom part of it, right? The energetics, the, the wisdom. So I teach, I'm very thematic when I teach. So I will choose a theme and it may [00:26:00] come from yoga.

  For example, I did a class or I'm doing a series right now. We're doing an elemental series. So it's five weeks. Perfect. Five elements. Let's do this in yoga anyway, or in Ayurveda. So I'm like, we started with earth, like, why is earth, why is grounding important in fertility, then water and fire and so on.

  So, yeah, just bringing a new perspective into it, like something to be like, oh, okay, I get it. I get that, I need to be grounded and feel safe for fertility to I don't want to say be boosted, but to be, to feel safe, your body, or to be working at full capacity, whatever is happening in your body, your body needs to feel safe for the fertility hormones.

  Whew.

  Michelle: I'm sure there's a lot more even that you might not even realize it, you know, because when we feel safe, I [00:27:00] mean, there's so many things that our bodies naturally do. And our bodies are so intelligent. And it puts us into a growth cycle in general, like our bodies are able to regenerate and repair when it feels like it's getting rest, the proper rest.

  So, also uh, something that I've noticed, and I do have some patients, it's really interesting because it kind of correlates with jaw tension, but it usually correlates with hip tension.

  Kerry: Hip and pelvic floor, probably. Yeah.

  Michelle: And so that's something that I always think about with fertility yoga is really kind of like getting that area more free because it correlates to the first and second chakra.

  And the first chakra is really that rooted chakra, the place that we feel safe, and that holds up the second chakra, which is really where our fertility is. So in order to have that active, you know, it depends on that foundation of safety.

  Kerry: Yeah.

  Michelle: So also the blood flow, I'm [00:28:00] sure.

  Kerry: Oh, yeah. Yeah. See, there's so much. I like so many things. But yeah, so that somatic slow flow movement that's pelvic centered, of course, it's like, it's energetic, like bringing energy in and like moving energy, which is really important when we're in our lifestyle of sitting stagnant a lot of the time.

  And yeah, the blood flow, Like this gentle squeeze and release, right? Like it's constantly bringing in new oxygenated blood into the organs of the pelvis. And I think often in yoga, we don't think, we don't think about the organ level. when we're moving our bodies. And that's what I love about the Ayurvedic yoga.

  It's more okay, this is happening in your body. let's look at the liver, right? So you're doing side bends and the liver and the spleen and just incorporating more of those, organs, like the systems of the body. It's not just about. the [00:29:00] large muscle groups and releasing tension, which feels great and is lovely and good for energy and marma points and things like that.

  But we can also work at the organ level and the hormonal level.

  Michelle: Yeah, for sure. And do you also include pranayama? Yeah.

  Kerry: I do breath work. I don't do we're going to do half an hour pranayama every time, but I will integrate breath work or pranayama techniques. When they're suited for the theme or what we're doing with our bodies, sometimes mudra as well. So like, let's, Which is our hand gesture.

  Yeah. It's like a seal.

  Michelle: again, see, it relates to the meridians and the energetic connections in the body. It's like our body's like a circuit. So putting our fingers together in certain positions will actually link that circuit and, and have it continue.

  Kerry: Yeah, yeah, and [00:30:00] I was never really into mudras

  for quite a while of my yoga journey like I was like Oh, yeah, let's I'm gonna stick my fingers together do whatever all the things that you know Yeah, mudra and so on that you see all the time and then someone actually sat down and we we I learned and I experimented with like slowly touching your fingers together and then like you know, do you want to increase something or decrease something, et cetera.

  And it was actually very profound.

  And that energetic piece, I believe it, and it's now Ayurveda as well. And in yoga, energy is the thing that connects. The element that connects body and mind. Right. We're always talking about body and mind, but what is it that's, that's going on to connect those two?

  It's the energetic body. And pretty soon I am hoping western science will get on [00:31:00] board. It slowly

  Michelle: It is. It's really fascinating. I mean, that's a lot of Dr. Joe dispenses. He's always talking about like energy frequencies, and he talks about how we can connect and he does a lot of scientific research on it actually. So he looks at the brain waves and how they respond to certain meditations and certain energy movements.

  He does also breath a specific breath. And a lot of people have Kundalini awakenings. That's what it, I mean, he doesn't call it that. He talks about it more scientific and he talks about chakras. He doesn't call it chakras. He calls it energy centers. And it's basically the same thing that we've been, you know, we've been taught years ago, thousands of years ago.

  And ultimately, I mean, people are having Kundalini rising. They, they see this light, they feel this incredible energy just shooting through their spine from the base. It opens up cause that's where the Kundalini of people haven't really learned about that. They say that there's this [00:32:00] dormant energy at the root of your spine.

  That's always there, but it's sleeping. And so

  sometimes

  doing. Yep. And when we do breath work or certain types of exercises, it can actually awaken that when that awakens, a lot of people have spontaneous healing, spontaneous remission, and it's really fascinating. So his work is also very much based on quantum physics.

  And if you look at a lot of the old work and teachings of ancient cultures. They describe pretty much what we're learning as quantum physics. And it ultimately comes down to the fact that we are mostly energy and much, much, much, much less matter than we really think we are. We're like 0. 0000001. It's like a million tons of zeros.

  And then one, that's how our matter is. And if we actually Take it like the space actually is way more in between the [00:33:00] particles in our bodies and just what we

  see. So it's kind of like an illusion. It's really fascinating. So we really are vibratory beings, which is why vibration sound really impacts our bodies.

  I can nerd.

  I

  Kerry: I, I'm going to go, I'm

  going

  to,

  Michelle: all day long.

  Kerry: I know me too. Well, I, well, there's two things I wanted to talk about, but first I want to talk about space and spaciousness, openness. And I often say to my students, like magic happens in the space. So when we think about the body, We need space in our body, openness, spaciousness, for our body to function, right? between the synapses, there's a little gap, right? It's tiny,

  but it's there. And that we have, we need to have space, the womb, let's not forget, that is space. openness,

  spaciousness, [00:34:00] right? we have to have space in our digestive track and air and things like that to keep it moving.

  And now I'm like going off the deep end and also Ayurveda of course, right? anything that is moving in our body is the air and ether element and ether is spaciousness, it's openness. And so I often emphasize this idea you in class of creating space. When we move our pelvis, we're creating space.

  We're opening up, we're releasing blocked energy, if you will, or like stagnant blood, like we are getting things moving. And when things are moving, the magic happens, right? Like the space, we need that spaciousness. Oh yeah.

  I

  Michelle: that.

  Kerry: Yeah. The

  Michelle: Well, it's, it's so cool. I mean, cause, cause that's one of the things that Joe Dispenza does is he first, he almost puts you in an induction with his [00:35:00] meditations and he says space, and he wants you to focus on like this endless space. But the reason why is there's a rhyme. There's a reason for everything that he does is that when our minds focus on space, it actually creates.

  I don't know how to how he described it. Actually. I mean, I go to so many of his stuff, but I don't remember everything but he said that when you do that, I think it takes you almost to a different mind. Mental frequency brainwave when you start to focus on space.

  Kerry: Well, so Yoga Nidra, which we had talked about previously, but Yoga Nidra, which is like a 5, 000 year old technique that the yogis came up with it is about, it is about that. It is about slowing down your brainwave to delta wave, which is what your brainwaves would be like if you were in deep sleep. And why do we love deep sleep so much?

  Because that's when we heal, that's when we [00:36:00] process and calibrate and so on. Our organs are doing their cleaning up and all that and it's so important and it's definitely related to fertility that deep sleep state. And Yeah, with Yoga Nidra, we're purposefully going there, but being conscious when we're there.

  So it's an experience that we would never do. We would never get to that state on our, on our own naturally. Like we'd either be in deep sleep or we wouldn't be in Delta. So this is what I love about Yoga Nidra. And like you were saying, just even the concept of thinking about. Space or expansiveness or you know, you're in an airplane, you look out the window and all you see is infinite space.

  it never ends. It just goes on and on and on. Right. But yeah, it does, slow us down. It slows down the brainwave so we can get out of the, the gamma or the, you know what we're in right now [00:37:00] talking.

  Michelle: Yes. And it also gives you a sense of freedom. You just feel this like sense of peace and freedom from that space. Cause then you're like, ah, you know, there's just so much, and there's so many possibilities and it's open. And so for people actually who have not heard of yoga, Nidra, can you explain what it is exactly?

  Kerry: Okay. So yoga nidra, like I said, it's thousands of years old. It has so many benefits. I mean, it's so many like deep healing, but also like physical deep healing, but also mental emotional. So it takes, you know, sort of these deeply ingrained, maybe even ancestral patterns that we have, we can start to change those patterns.

  The body can process all of those things. It's so, it's. It's, it's the Soma we say in yoga, it's the sweet nectar. [00:38:00] It's the nectar that we want for our bodies, especially during fertility, but also to for overall health and longevity. We want to have that sweetness and that nectar in us. And what I use it for, I do a ton of Yoga Nidra in classes.

  It is It is a progressive deep relaxation technique. It that it has been, Huberman has taken it and called it non sleep deep rest because it's more palpable to Western mind. So it's been an eye rest and all these things. So it's yoga nidra has been taken and repackaged in many different ways for our Western minds.

  I love the traditional one. Of course, I'm sure you probably do too. And. Yeah, you just, you go

  ## Marker

  Kerry: progressively to put your body to sleep. So you go through body parts and you relax those body parts and we can, instill or implant a message. [00:39:00] We call it sankalpa, but you can call it whatever you want.

  Affirmation, it's not quite the right word. Intention maybe of what deep healing you want to happen. And that's sort of implanted throughout the deep relaxation part. And then yoga nidra is actually a state. It's not the progress of getting there. So yoga nidra is when you are, your body's asleep, you're conscious.

  But your brain is in these sort of Delta waves and sometimes you get there, sometimes you don't, and sometimes the journey is joyful to, to get there too, right? So it's not oh, you have to get to that state to get any benefit. You're still getting all that parasympathetic work going on. The body feels safe and protected.

  And most people feel very blissful. afterwards, they often say, Oh, it's like hypnotic that there's like this [00:40:00] hypnosis. And my voice too, I think it's like low and like kind of slow and steady. They're like, Oh, I just hear your voice and I start to relax. Right. So it is a really powerful tool. And if I were to choose one thing, like people say, what yoga pose should I do to help my fertility?

  If I could choose one thing I would say do Yoga Nidra for at least 40 days straight

  Michelle: Yeah,

  Kerry: and see what happens. I think it's perfect. And I have a program, 40 days, a 40 day program where you have the option to do Yoga Nidra every day if you wanted to, or meditation. So yeah, it's, it's perfect. It's really powerful.

  really

  Michelle: is so cool. And I'm excited actually to have you as a guest contributor

  to my fertility hypnosis toolbox. Soon. I know a lot of people, listeners are probably on there, so you guys I'll be very excited. I think by the [00:41:00] time this is out, probably going to

  Kerry: it.

  to you. I promise. I will do it. I feel honored

  Michelle: have time. you have time.

  Kerry: Yeah, I

  know. But I wanted to make it, this is me. I want to make it, I don't want to just maybe take an old recording that, you know, It's, you know, been out there for a while. Like I want to make new things for you and also like, where do we need the yoga nidra the most?

  Like the two week wait, perfect time,

  um, after law. So you know, I want to theme them so that there's it hits home for what people need the most.

  Michelle: Well, I'm so grateful for that and I'm grateful for this conversation. I think this is awesome. I can nerd out on this stuff

  Kerry: too. Me too. Me too. I

  Michelle: I think we're on the same page.

  Kerry: I am

  Michelle: fascinating.

  Kerry: nerdy about it. And,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Kerry: and, I mean, I know, I love what you do. All the messaging that you're sending out there to those that are on this journey, I think it's so valuable and, [00:42:00] and needed. we need more voices that are like, here, right? here,

  Michelle:

  the ancient stuff, kind of like the bridging that ancient wisdom, that ancient nurturing, really connecting with nature. Cause I know that you also are a big fan of nature and being out in nature. And I think that really just kind of coming home to like our authentic authenticity of, as humans, and sort of the tribalness that, you know, coming home to really our roots and the sacredness that we have also as women.

  I think that that's there's so much power in that. And I think that a lot of people are thirsting for that. And that's why I nerd out on this. I say, it's you know, I could say my brain nerds out now, but I think my soul nerds

  Kerry: Mm. Oh, I love that. Yes, my soul nerds out on it. That is so good. I love that. I'm gonna use it

  if I

  can't

  Michelle: said, well, Carrie, like I, we had such a great conversation also on your podcast,

  Kerry: yes

  Michelle: guys. Yes. I highly recommend you guys [00:43:00] check out her podcasts. Fringe fertility. So it is definitely like something that I highly suggest.

  Cause you're going to get more of this amazing conversation on there and she has other guests on there. So yeah, very

  Kerry: thanks for the shout out for the podcast.

  Thank you. Yeah. Well, it was a pleasure to be here today and sharing this conversation. I could just do it forever and ever.

  Michelle: for sure. And also before we go, how can people find you? What are the best ways?

  Kerry: sure. So yeah, I have a website Fertile Body Yoga. So it's a virtual yoga studio dedicated to fertility. So fertilebodyyoga. com. That's probably the, the lead in place to find me. I'm on Instagram as well. I'm not a huge Instagrammer though. And lately, I'm feeling like I just might need to walk away because for my mental health.

  But I do have an Instagram account. It is fertile body yoga there. And yeah, like I'm always doing [00:44:00] some great collaborative workshops and I have a retreat coming up at the end of April. You can cut this out if it's not the right timing, but so an in person retreat in New Hampshire at the end of April with. Two lovely co creators. So that, that's the big thing. That is huge. This has been years in the making and

  it's

  finally

  Michelle: That's so exciting. Well, congratulations. That's really cool.

  Kerry: Yeah. Thank you.

  Michelle: Awesome. Well, Carrie, this has been a pleasure and we really do have great conversations. I could tell you that we definitely are very aligned in a lot of the way we view the body and really view the fertility journey. And also thank you for sharing your own experience and now sharing your story.

  Cause I think that a lot of people will be inspired by that as well. So thank you so much. This has been amazing.

  Perfect.

  Kerry: Thank you. for having me.[00:45:00] [00:46:00]

EP 328 Glutathione for Fertility: The Antioxidant Game-Changer

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Dr. Nayan Patel @aurowellness, a pharmacist, researcher, and glutathione expert, to explore the critical role glutathione plays in fertility and overall health. Dr. Patel shares his journey from traditional pharmacy to developing a breakthrough delivery system for glutathione through the skin, and why this antioxidant is essential for protecting egg and sperm quality.

In this episode, you’ll learn how oxidative stress impacts fertility, why diet alone might not be enough, and how his innovative technology can support the body’s natural detoxification process. Be sure to tune in for this fascinating conversation packed with practical advice and insights for anyone on the fertility journey!
 

Guest Bio:

Dr. Nayan Patel @aurowellness is a highly sought-after pharmacist, wellness expert, and thought leader in his industry. Since 1999, he has collaborated with physicians to custom-develop medications and design patient-specific drug and nutrition regimens. As the pharmacist of choice for celebrities, CEOs, and physicians alike, Dr. Patel is recognized for his innovative approach to health and wellness. He is the author of The Glutathione Revolution: Fight Disease, Slow Aging & Increase Energy, which distills over a decade of clinical research on the master antioxidant, glutathione. His patented technology for delivering glutathione topically has revolutionized how the body absorbs this essential molecule. From this breakthrough, he also created the Auro GSH Antioxidant Delivery System, a skincare line designed to deliver antioxidants more efficiently and effectively than ever before.

Websites/Social Media Links:

Website: https://aurowellness.com/?ref=1670

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FertilitySpecialistGabrielaRosa 

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• Transcript

  # TWF: Dr. Nayan Patel

  [00:00:00] [00:01:00]

  Michelle Oravitz: So welcome to the podcast, Dr. Patel.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate the time today.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yes, I'm very excited to talk about what we are going to discuss, which is glutathione. But before we get to that, I would love to get your backstory and how you got into the work that you're doing today.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Oh my god, absolutely. So start off as a pharmacist, as a career as a pharmacist, and after graduation [00:02:00] from pharmacy school. In Southern California, we were, we were trained to take care of the patient's needs and medications. And very quickly I realized that the medications we have at that time were actually not solving any problem.

  They were just maintaining people's problems. And very, very early on, you know, you have an aha moment in your life. That oh my god, what what did I just do right? Oh, I'm just not solving any problems So I had to turn my career to a completely different angle no former educations in in making medications or doing compounding or customizing medications that dive into the that practice and 25 years later here we are today and looking back at that and said, what a journey, what a turning point I had, because it shaped me for who I am today. I had the privilege of making medications and design treatment plans and drug plans for so many individuals helping them in their health and wellness journey. And then all [00:03:00] roads led to me to a discovery of a novel technology that can deliver glutathione. And it all started because I was just curious to find out how we can help people solve their own problems instead of trying to figure out medications to solve the problems. Right? Even though glutathione is not a, it's, it's something that body produces internally we're using it as a supplement today, but. And overall my goal was not to do anything and just enhance the body's own ability to to defend itself. And so here we are today it's a very interesting career for me for sure.

  Michelle Oravitz: For

  sure. And first of all, just for people listening that don't really know much about glutathione, I'd love for you to share really what it is and also why it could be so challenging to supplement with.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Absolutely. so the glutathione in a nutshell Is three amino acids coming together in a single chain. It's a one of the smallest form of peptides we have You two amino acid chains, three amino [00:04:00] acid chains, four, five, 30, 40, 50, and thousands of the chains as well. The simplest form, of course, is glutathione, which is about three amino acids coming together. It's by far the most abundant molecule produced in the human body. And if that's produced so much, we ought to know what it's supposed to do for us. And so that's what my research came back for 140 years that we have known about glutathione. Nobody's ever figured out how to actually get inside your body. And so, 60 years ago, 70 years ago, we had a medication approved by FDA to enhance glutathione level. And as of today, that is the only medication that has been approved ever. In the whole,

  in the whole world, which is N acetylcysteine, which is one of the amino acids that's been used to produce chlorothione. And that's the only thing that has been available for the last 60, 70 years.

  Michelle Oravitz: So let's talk about what so we definitely, that's one of the things that um, I've been doing for egg health and also sperm [00:05:00] quality, cause it's such a high potent antioxidant. And one of the things that I have always suggested is N acetylcysteine because that's the precursor and we knew that that was like the one way that the body was able to produce it.

  Okay. Thank you. But then there were some supplements that still supplement with glutathione, liposomal, like different ways, which I know are not really shelf stable. So there's always been challenges with that, but before we continue on with that, I'd love for people to hear, like, what glutathione can benefit, how it can benefit the body.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: So, I understand your audience is interested more in the fertility side of the whole thing. So, you're dealing with rather younger individuals overall which is a good sign because younger patients have, everything at their disposal for the body to respond to even the smallest amount of nutrients that they receive. If the same amount of nutrients is given to an 85 year old person, they're not [00:06:00] going to feel anything, right? But if 20 year old person gets a small amount of good nutrition, they respond very, very well. And so I want to make sure that people understand that

  Michelle Oravitz: And also just to kind of mention um, sometimes we have 40 year olds too, that are trying to conceive or like trying to do IVF. So just kind of like, yeah, the whole,

  Dr. Nayan Patel: They're still spring chicken to

  Michelle Oravitz: okay. Okay. It's good for them to hear that.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: I mean, I've helped people in the very, I mean, in the late forties to get babies as well. So it's

  not something that's not doable. It's just gets incredibly hard after the age of 40. So it's, not that easy to do so, but the glutathione has multiple properties and understanding what glutathione does is, monument in over. in our therapies because with the two things that we do know is it's the ability for glutathione as an antioxidant to detoxify, neutralize all the free radicals in your body. But the second component is also help you detoxify by conjugating [00:07:00] inside your liver with metabolites and chemicals binding to them.

  So we can basically get rid of it from from your body. So the two functions that we do know That exists today. There's a lot more research still existing that we need to do. So we, we still are urging researchers to go back and use this new technology product and see if we can find out more things that glutathione can do for us.

  So one two the sperm or the egg quality is dependent on how your body is able to neutralize those free radicals. Those free radicals are actually toxic to all the embryonic membranes and embryos itself and the quality of the sperm and the egg itself. And neutralizing those free radical of body, there's three ways to do that part.

  One, you take outside products like vitamin C, and vitamin E, and CoQ10, and and C60s, and I mean, methylene blues, I mean, there's a slew of products that says, oh, we are so called antioxidants, right? So that's [00:08:00] category one. The category two of the products are produced endogenously inside your body are enzymes like catalase, supra oxide, puase, SOD, for short glutathione peroxidase, or GPX for short.

  So these are the enzymes that the body produces to deal with the oxidative stress or the free radicals. Okay, so those are the category one are the category two. The third category is only one product, which is glutathione. And if you look at it, the body produces so much of glutathione, and the effects of glutathione is so powerful, that if you combine the category one, which is all the antioxidants from outside sources, and the enzymes that your body produces, those two combine, Glutathione can surpass the antioxidant properties. And so I want listeners to understand very carefully is that the glutathione needs to be a basic cornerstone in everybody's arsenal. Every medicine chest in the world should have a [00:09:00] bottle says glutathione And in that bottle either you have a product or it have a note saying that eat healthy food to Let your body produce its own glutathione Either way that note has to be there on every medicine chest out there and you're right There's so much noise out there I want to cut to the noise today because if you just put your favorite search engine or your ai robot is going to tell you hey glirathion, there are a thousand different products out there.

  Choose one You Right. And as a consumer it's very hard to find out what to choose correctly and people hide behind a great technologies that that exists in the world and said, Oh, my, my product uses this technology. So it's the best one in the world. And you mentioned liposome technology, by the way, I just will let, you know, we were one of the very first few people that actually use liposome to produce the first liposomal glutathione. This was 25 plus years ago, right? And we made the liposome because at that time that was the [00:10:00] best technology that existed in the pharmaceutical world. And the doctor that owned the patents for those came to me and said, Hey, we've been very successful in making this for medications. Can you help me make nutraceuticals with it?

  Like vitamin C and CoQ10 and PQQ and S Xanthine and Glutathione and so on and so forth. And so we made the products for that doctor. And then a couple of years later. Some work, some did not work. Gluten was one of the products that did not work. So I go back and says, why is that working on everybody? The question I always ask is, hey, it helped my girlfriend. How come it's not helping me? Or it helped my sister. Why, how come it's not helping me? What, what, what am I, how am I different

  than the other human beings? and in reality, only your face is different. Internally, we are identical.

  A body has the same heart, the same organs, everything is the same, right?

  So we have not changed for the last 40, 000 plus years, [00:11:00] how to expect that I'm different than my sister, or I'm different than my girlfriend, or whatever, right? Maybe your genomic mixture is different, but your overall organs and organ systems are identical. And so to me, I said, okay, if it works in one person, it should work on everybody. If I get absorption in one person, I guess you should get absorption in everybody. What's the rate limiting factor? Why is it not happening? And so I didn't have answers at that time. I did not know what to do. So next story is that, okay, you know what? I'll make the intravenous form of glutathione. Hey, if I inject him into the bloodstream, my job's done. Again, took me a few months to figure that portion out how to make that part. And yes, This is long story short, we were Well, again, we were one of the first company pharmacy early on in 2001 to make the injectable form of glutathione. Now, very quickly, we realized that the effects of this glutathione was very short, right?

  And then I looked back in the research and said, there was a study done in 1991 [00:12:00] saying that if once you inject glutathione, it only stays in the body for between four It takes five to 15 minutes and everything gets destroyed or gets, get, get, it gets into the urine and you pee it out, but an hour and a half later, there was an increase of cysteine, which is one of the amino acids that went up in the blood. And so the researchers concluded that the body was breaking down this glutathione and cysteine was getting reabsorbed by the body and cysteine is being used for your body to produce its own glutathione. I said, okay, I don't care how the body makes it. As long as the body has a gluten, I don't care. But the results were very short lived. And I don't know if you know this thing, but back in early 2000s, one of the doctors came to me. I said, Hey, if it's short lived, that's okay. Let me take you to Vegas because when people drink, they deplete their glutathione levels. If it only stays for 15 minutes, I can revive somebody who's passed out drunk of their minds and I can get them.

  So. He literally took this product to Vegas and [00:13:00] start helping patients. I read scripts for those

  kinds of things. And again, I have nothing to do with it. I, unfortunately, I was just the supplier and I was just the maker of the product, but we saved so many lives. We helped so many people, but we were, we learned one thing that the action was not long term.

  And if I want the long term benefits, because if it's one of your patient, if it's one of your listener, who's, who's trying to get pregnant she, or he has to plan for A 30 day cycle, not a 15 minute. Give me some push right now and I'll be done. No, it's a

  30 day cycle. You have to plan everything methodically, right?

  What am I supposed to do from day one to day seven and from day seven to day 14. And after ovulation, what do I do? And after post ovulation, if there's an embryo implantation, what do I do? And so on and so forth. It's a, it's a whole process and your body needs to be clean this whole time. And none of the products were actually getting the results I was looking for.

  Later on, I found out, this was 2011 [00:14:00] University of Texas in Austin did a study on the liposome technology product of glirathione. And what they found out was same thing that they saw in intravenous form. The body actually breaks down the glirathione, never absorbs a single molecule of it. Absorbs the cysteine and cysteine is later used to produce his own glutathione. And the end story is, it still works. It still works. But people need to understand, just because it works, it does not mean your body absorbed it.

  And there's a there's a difference between that one and maybe some people may not appreciate that part But I do appreciate that part because in my case i'm dealing with thousands of patients across the country across the globe now And I want to make sure that I want to give assurance to everybody that hey if I give you a glutathione product No matter what it is going to get inside your body [00:15:00] and absorb it And so the liposome technology product was great until now People got a lot of people got results for almost 80 got results from it but not because it absorbs it because the body was able to Conjugate or take the cysteine and make its own glirathione today Today the things have changed now.

  Why? because 15 20 years ago We started doing gene testing gene snips You Right at that time it was nobody can afford it. I was fifteen twenty thousand dollars for a blood test Oh gosh, no, nobody can afford that today Same test is 200 bucks 300 bucks,

  Michelle Oravitz: Right.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: right? So now what's happened is that now everybody's doing these gene testings And finally got hey, do I have gene mutation where my body cannot produce gluothione

  if the answer is yes Then I don't care how much product you take from outside sources, the body is not [00:16:00] able to effectively produce glutathione correctly all the time.

  And so that to me is one more proof, one more proof that we need a product that your body can actually accept it, incorporate into their own DNA and use it when it needs to. Anyways, I just went off too many

  tangents no, Thanks very much, interesting. I want you to continue. So how did you find out and, and like how did you discover the product that you have now and what kind of technology does it use and how does it really impact the body?

  Absolutely. Those

  Michelle Oravitz: nerd in me wants to know

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Yeah.

  All great, great questions. And I want to, I really want to be an open book. I don't want to hide any information from anybody so that I'll be more than happy to open it up and let everybody know. So earlier when I first started the book. So we had a, we had a couple of barriers.

  One, what we knew was the body's not going to take any peptides, any amino acid chains to get it to and incorporate it into their own DNA. [00:17:00] What we, what I found out was the body has to make 100 percent of all peptides in the body, the body has to make it.

  Right. So we knew that I knew that part very early on. So I said, okay, there is no way on earth I'll be able to make a product that your body can use it up. Okay, so now I had to figure out Okay, how do I get this simple tripeptide three amino acid chain peptides into the body? So I first of all, I want to do, I want to create a stable molecule because if I have a stable molecule in my lab, I can work with it.

  If it's unstable, I don't have time to really experiment on it, right? So my first goal was to make a stable molecule. So that we achieved pretty fast. It took us a couple of years when we got the stable molecule. We took it by mouth. Again what we saw was Sistine went up, so it was not working really, it was getting broken down. We scored into the nose, I said, and if the nose was burning, I said, oh, nobody's going to use this on a daily basis. Of course not, right? It's not a, it's not a fun thing to do. I knew the [00:18:00] injectables was a little bit of an uphill battle because it requires FD approval and all those things. I said, you know what? The only route that was remaining was skin route.

  And of course, skin is a physical barrier, right? So it's a physical barrier that I have to overcome. And the physical barrier is, is a particle size barrier. So I had to reduce the particle size so small, It can get through the cracks or the pores of your skin and get inside your body. So that was the first challenge I had, which we were able to crack the code in about a couple of years. We had to take this peptides, twist it in such a form that doesn't get broken apart and gets a small, you know, like when you twist the towel, you know how it gets smaller and smaller and smaller, but you twist enough, it can get really small. And so that's what we did with this molecule. It forces microscopically, and we were able to reduce the particle size to much smaller. We got to the skin. The bigger challenge is this glutathione is inside your cells. So now the issue is that, [00:19:00] okay, we release a particle size, we get through your skin. Now, so the physical barrier, we, we all work in the physical barrier. The second was a chemical barrier. Because the cell wall is a lock and key.

  Hey, you say the magic word and the castle opens up and you can go inside. But if you don't say the magic word, the castle will never open for you. So the question then becomes is that what does the body needs?

  What does the cell needs to survive? All your mitochondria, the energy powerhouse in your body is in the cells, right? And that to produce the energy, what you need is carbohydrates and sugars. I cannot give you sugars because I give you diabetes and we already have an epidemic of diabetes in the United States across the world nowadays so I said, okay, how do I get a polysaccharide sugar type molecule?

  That doesn't doesn't do anything about the sugar is completely inert FDA has tested it out and it's completely safe to give to anybody pregnancy no pregnancy children's everybody And can I use that molecule? So we found [00:20:00] dextrin technology. This was a technology that has been out for about 20, 30 years now, but there are no good medications in the world.

  As even in today's state, there's not too many medications out there. People are still dabbling around. those technology products. And so we use the technology to literally, instead of working with medications, we start working with glutathione. We do the sugar molecule and stuff inside with glutathione. It's like, do you need M& Ms? Do you need

  Michelle Oravitz: No, not anymore,

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Not anymore,

  Okay, Good. Good. Do you, do you eat M& Ms for the peanuts or for the chocolate?

  Michelle Oravitz: I guess well, I used to like the chocolate ones when I was really, really little. And then later on peanuts,

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Exactly. But the thing is, you don't eat M& Ms for peanuts, you eat M& Ms for the chocolate.

  But the

  peanut inside, if you get a peanut, do you spit it out? Or you know what? It's not so bad. I can use it up.

  Michelle Oravitz: It's like I compare it to like, you know, the being able to take those pill things for your dogs where you put it inside a treat and get the dog to eat it. And[00:21:00]

  Dr. Nayan Patel: That's exactly right, right? So I took the carbohydrate, the sugar molecule, stuffed the glutathione inside, you know, so the body, when the carbohydrate hits the cell wall, the cell goes, oh, I can use this up. Right? And sucks it in. Inside is glutathione.

  But he goes, well, I can use this up too.

  It's not something new to me, so I can use this up too. Right? And so now, it's like you somebody tells you that, hey, I have a billion dollar coming to you, but it's coming in the mail. Well, that's not helping me right now, but if it hits my wallet, gosh, I can spend it today. Right? So, you can check the mail, it's in a transit, but until it hits the wallet, you cannot do anything about it.

  Saving glutathione, if the glutathione is in your body, but it's not inside your cell, the, the cell says that, okay, I need the glutathione, but it's way out there. It's not in my cell. I cannot use it up. Here we got inside the cell directly. [00:22:00] When we did that part, like magic just happened. All of a sudden, the body has a product.

  The body needs it. The money's in the wallet right now. I can go spend it today. And the body can actually use the glutathione immediately To start doing what? Two things that we know of as of right now. One is start neutralizing all the free radicals. That's number one.

  Number two, start getting my liver cleaned up and start detoxifying all this, all this metabolism in my system.

  When you do those things up, all of a sudden your whole body or your temple, your, your the sanctuary in your body starts getting healed from inside, starts getting cleaner. And all of a sudden the, main thing, which is our sperm and the eggs. Are not been invaded or not been attacked by this toxic chemicals.

  Michelle Oravitz: Right?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: And so that's, there's, there's my technology. We discovered this in 2007, as you can imagine 2007 it was too far [00:23:00] ahead of the game.

  There was nothing in the world that exists something even close to this thing. And so there was no studies being done. There's no research articles published. There's nothing out there in the world that I can fall back and say, Hey, go ahead and use it safe.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: do that part. So it took me another 13, 14 more years to literally do everything that I can do on my own. I have no funding.

  I did everything on my own. I put every single thing I have back into this to basically research it out. Apply for the patents, all my work that I did. I, in fact, I published a book about three, four years ago. All the work I did for the first 13 years, I put in a book. I said, Hey. Guys, here's read it, right? This is this is all my work and it's just success stories that I've given to patients and clients and And found friends and family that uses product and and see how how much benefit they got in different areas of life right if you're an athlete versus if you have metabolic disorders versus you have [00:24:00] metabolism, defects if you're on the spectrum because spectrum patients have some sort of Metabolism issues of detoxification issues that they cannot clear the toxins out of the body

  And they are the autism or aspergers or whatever they got right?

  So

  i've all the stories and I have some

  stories about horses and and dogs and how how they

  it helped them as well in their in their wellness, thing as well as anyways So that's all the stories in the book the glutton revolution. That's my book. But after everything got done We had a pandemic

  Michelle Oravitz: Right.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: the product was not even released yet You And the pandemic comes around and I've been begged by all the doctors around the country.

  I said, oh my god Please give us the access to the glutathione because I was working with doctors So they knew about this product, but none of the consumers knew knew about it

  And so that's when we actually did a soft launch. We didn't have a bottling. We didn't have a boxing. We have nothing at that time No website, we had a website, but it was like a nothing nothing crazy So 2021 [00:25:00] was the first launch of the product now we are here today, but, so anyways, so

  thanks for asking me this question, but I just wanna make sure the story

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, no, I love the story because I think also I have very, very smart listeners, I'll be honest, like with a fertility journey, they are so educated. You know, it's such a motivator to really educate yourself. And a lot of times if I work with people in person online, I see the most educated people, they really know a lot.

  So I wanted to kind of have a background to really explain how the process works. Cause I feel like it's very empowering for them. And the two things that I know, like an N acetylcysteine. So that works as a precursor to get the cysteine. And then from that gets the body to produce glutathione. And then your product works through the skin and then is enveloped by the carbohydrates, right.

  Or the yeah,

  Dr. Nayan Patel: is, it, it's, it's a polysaccharides is what we call 'em. And it's embedded inside that one. It's the, analogy I can [00:26:00] give you is that, hey if you need money, there's two ways to get money. One is I'll give you a job. You work at it. And you, you share your trades and then for the reward, I'll give you money. The second part is here's the money in your wallet. I'm not going to give you too much of it. I'm just going to give you enough to survive the rest. You still have to go make it yourself. Right. And so the second part, I give you enough to survive. Your body says to make the rest of the glutathione from the foods you eat and things like that.

  but a lot of people need, just need a little edge over everybody else. So

  I just give them extra glutathione to make sure that they are able to use up right now, because when you have a problem today, if you need the money today, and if you give you a job, I said, that's good, but I need the money now.

  I don't need money two weeks

  from now.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: And so that makes it very, very useful. And in, in certain cases, I'm not saying that is good for everybody.

  What I am saying that is good for everybody, but the product may not be good for everybody,[00:27:00]

  but having a healthier lifestyle, having the cysteine rich diet.

  Is absolutely a must I

  don't care what what age you are, right?

  That is absolutely a must

  So if you do that, if you have a healthy lifestyle, that means avoid the toxins that depletes the glutathione levels

  Having the diet that consumes that gives all the amino acids those two things combined Will will give you a fighting chance for long periods of time where you don't need any supplementations

  The supplementation is very good for people that need extra help or temporarily

  And then once your body gets under control then you can stop it, too

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. And then, so the couple of questions that come to my mind is you know, I'm, I'm a, also a big believer, obviously it sounds like it's doing something, but I'm also a big believer that like nature has a very a method for its madness. And I'm wondering, is there a reason why it's under such lock to allow um, glutathione in by itself, rather than having the body produce it?

  It was just [00:28:00] kind of like something that came to my mind.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: know.

  Michelle Oravitz: you were mentioning that.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: and you're right. I mean, the body is, is equipped to deal with, because any peptides that you, that the body can accept from outside sources can actually get embedded into your DNA.

  And so having the purity, what if you give somebody else's DNA inside your body?

  Michelle Oravitz: Right.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Wow.

  Right. Think about it.

  Think about it. You're injecting somebody else's DNA. Some, some of the protein

  from something else that is not made by humans. The body is going to start going to cycle, react to it and say, Oh my God, what if well, we have vaccines right nowadays. What are the vaccines are proteins by outside of viruses, right? How about we use those embedded into our own DNA?

  So that's the, that's a scary part to me. And so that's the reason why a body does not allow anything from outside sources to get inside your body.

  It's very [00:29:00] very protective. Glutathione we do know is produced endogenously. It's

  inside your body, making sure that the glutathione the raw materials that we use Is of the highest highest quality.

  I would say 99. 99 percent pure is what we need. Otherwise, we just going to have a chance of making sure we have a chance that we can harm our body. And so

  just so for when I, when I first heard that in 2007, I quickly, I realized that I have to bring manufacturing in house.

  I can't trust anybody to do this for me.

  It literally took me eight years to build my own plant out

  small plant But just enough so that I can control every single thing making sure the water that I use is the highest quality Everything that goes inside is for the highest quality products. That's why I had to Ensure that so I brought everything in house.

  It was too costly to make it It's still too costly to make it and to [00:30:00] reduce the cost. I had to make sure that I I am, I'm going straight from the manufacturers to the consumers and there's no too many middlemen in between to reduce the cost down.

  And so we've been doing whatever it takes and you're right.

  The by doesn't take it. So having that technology to bypass this is somehow empowering that we can do that part. But it's scary is that we can use the same technology to, to hurt somebody too.

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And thank you for answering that. And also, my question is, what have you seen in the research? Like, what have you seen short term, long term, because you, it sounds like you guys have been working with us for a long time, in the response of people's bodies and conditions.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Absolutely. So just FYI of a human body gets everything gets, gets redone every 30, 60, 90 to 120 days.

  That means you get new cells in your bodies all the time.[00:31:00]

  The body is constantly constantly making new cells, better cells so that you can rejuvenate yourself from inside out, right? So the body is, it's like you're having a house, constantly remodeling your house from inside all the time, right?

  So no matter what happens, if I make a hole in the wall, you know what, a few months from now it'll be a brand new wall again. I don't have to do anything, just have to wait and don't make it further damage the wall, right? And

  it'll be repaired by itself. So the body repairs itself. The issue is that. The glutathione can actually improve the repair process to the point where it repairs better.

  And you can feel the effects much, much faster.

  Now certain organs take them 12 to 18 months to repair. For

  example, liver, it takes a long time to repair. So, any, if you're looking for benefits for liver health that may take anywhere from 12 to 18 months. Even though if I have doctors I work with all the time and the doctor says, Oh, my, the liver function tests are coming normal. I said, just because the tests have [00:32:00] no, that doesn't mean the liver is normal, right?

  I guess you're right. Absolutely right. So they do ultrasounds. They do scans and things like that to figure that portion out. But again, it takes them 12 to 18 months to fix it.

  At a short term people when they have have issues with oxidative stress.

  The biggest issue I've seen is these are, these are people that have some gene mutations that cannot produce, they cannot conjugate and make enough glutathione. They have this brain fog that has been lingering on for decades, decades, right? For 10, 20 years sometimes. Of course, these are older people.

  These are not 20 year olds. And so they've been struggling and All of a sudden, they use a gluotide and about 15 minutes later, they can just see the, just brain just opens up. Now, it is not a, it's not a something to improve your memory. It's not this magic pill that you see in the movies. It's here,

  one pill, my brain just fires up and I'm, I can

  think and I can do anything I want to do.

  It's not that pill, it's a

  Michelle Oravitz: but I'm sure it can prevent things like Alzheimer's or things like that. Mm hmm, [00:33:00] mm

  Dr. Nayan Patel: well, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and things like that as well. But in the short term, when people see the brain fog clears up, all it's doing is reducing oxidative stress.

  Michelle Oravitz: hmm.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: If you need to reduce oxidative stress, so I've seen results as much as 5 to 15 minutes. Up to two to four weeks in most

  individual And two three to six months in I would say 99 of the people they see some improvement in their health and wellness and they're most of them are working with the physicians So they're doing some blood tests before and after the doctors are saying what the heck you're doing I don't know what you're doing, but keep on doing it.

  It's very good for you. So

  Michelle Oravitz: That's really interesting. And then also, if you were to get, you know, outside source of glutathione, the body feels the glutathione, will it make an impact on the body's own production of glutathione now that it feels that it has more.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Absolutely. And the thing is [00:34:00] the the biggest concern that people have that hey What if if I take glutathione from outside sources with my body shut down his own production?

  And yes and no, I think the body probably may reduce the production, it probably will not shut it down because keep in mind when we're comparing, because most people have been burned by, hey, if you take steroids, your body will, it'll blow up like a balloon and because the body is not able to make its own regular, its own steroid production, which is true, which is 100 percent true. endocrine system is tightly regulated from your gonadal hormones, your pituitary and your ovaries and your testes and to the brain, which is the pituitary the hypothalamus, right? So they both work together, your brain tells your ovaries to produce the hormones, the ovaries produce the hormones, the ovaries cannot produce the hormones, The brain is going to keep on sending signals.

  Can you do more? Do more? Do more? Because I can't do anymore. I'm already tired. I'm burnt out. I'm just, I'm shriveled up. I can't do anymore. Right? Versus if you [00:35:00] take a hormone from outside sources, it affects straight to the pituitary. And the pituitaries will shut down and say, Hey,

  no more producing hormones.

  You got too much. I don't know where it's

  coming from,

  but

  Michelle Oravitz: like a thermostat,

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Right? It's a negative feedback. But when it comes

  to glutathione, glutathione is not triggered by any brain or hypothalamus. Glutathione is taking three

  amino acids together, two enzymes, two molecules of ATP, which is energy, and one molecule of NAD

  for electron transfer. All this to come together to make glutathione. Right?

  Now this same energy, ATP energy, NAD energy is being used in thousands of chemical reactions that happens every single day.

  So keep in mind, if your body does not have to produce glutathione, your energy is never wasted. It's used to do other reactions all day long. But the good thing is that glutathione is by far the most abundant molecule produced in the human body. [00:36:00] And after a couple of weeks or so, the body is saying, hey, everything is not working great. Now for two weeks later you see some increasing energy because now the energy is is Getting excess and your body goes.

  Oh my god. I have excess energy now all of a sudden. It's not a car It's not a caffeine type energy It's not like jumping up and down type of energy, but you do feel good from inside out

  Right. You do feel good. And all of a sudden

  you pick up other habits, walking, jogging, cycling, you know, or just going out and just, you just have this, this energy inside your body that you want to do other things.

  You just feel alive from inside.

  And so, and then when you stop the glutathione, the body says, okay, oh, should we have, we need more glutathione. So the first energy goes towards producing glutathione, but if you have enough glutathione, that energy has been used to produce other peptides. Keep in mind, a

  muscle needs what?

  6, 100 amino acids coming together. Takes a lot of

  energy to produce muscle fiber.

  So if you're not [00:37:00] using the energy to produce glutathione, hey, hopefully it goes to producing more muscle mass. I'm hoping for that.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. . And is there like a limit on how long you should take it? you know, is there a limit that you have?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: So, I do know that your body needs glutathione until the last day you die.

  So, until that day, you have to take it.

  After you're dead, I'm not sure if your body needs glutathione or not. So, that's a joke. I'm sorry. But your body needs glutathione to survive. Every single day. So the needs are going to be the endless. the better

  question to me is that do I need to supplement every single day of my

  life? That's a way better question for me to answer is to that that question came to me in my mind long time ago as well. And so what I have found out is that the body needs glutathione. to survive. Your body has the ability to produce glutathione, plenty of it on a daily basis. And what

  I found in [00:38:00] my research that up until about the age of 30, there is no need for any supplementation. None.

  Improve your diet, reduce your exposure to toxicities. You should be fine.

  Michelle Oravitz: Right?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Between 32, 35, if you have a healthier lifestyle, don't drink alcohol. Don't expose yourself to heavy levels of toxicities.

  Don't do sunbathing a whole lot. And having a very clean diet, you might still be okay. 35 to 40, I would say 80, 90 percent of the people may need to supplement gluathione, over

  40, I have yet to find somebody who has normal levels of gluathione and so the question that I ask is, Hey, what's Well, my mom in the fifties and sixties never had to use a gluathide, and she lived for long periods of time, so why is it today, right? But keep in mind, at that time, sixty years ago, maybe the world population was three billion, now we are eight billion population. And who are the biggest polluters in the world? Is it the [00:39:00] animals or the humans?

  Michelle Oravitz: Humans.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Humans.

  Animals don't even wear clothing. They don't even do anything. They don't have to build any houses and, and destroy the world. They just live, enjoy the world and leave the world the way it was when they came in. Us humans wants to fly, wants to build a hundred story buildings and wants to drive cars and wants to do all kinds of things. So we are the biggest polluters and the pollution has literally what more than doubled in the last 60 years. So if we say that the, the modernist society is polluted, the answer is

  absolutely yes. And it's not, it's not like we are turning the tables and we're going on the other way around. So like it or not, nobody's willing to give the modern day conveniences at this point.

  They don't, they're not going to do that part. So the question is that yes, Maybe my mom did not need gluten until the age of 50 or 60 [00:40:00] maybe. That's dropped down to 30, 35 or 40 at this point. And I'm scared for my kids because they may need glutathione at the age of 25 That's that's not a good thing to do, but it's just just telling us that our memory is getting more and more polluted and we need to figure out every single thing that we can do to enhance our body to stay clean from inside.

  Michelle Oravitz: And is there a benefit to taking N acetylcysteine as well as the, the skin,

  um, supplementation?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: okay, so NAC or cysteine so there are about eight essential amino acids that you have to take every single day Cysteine is not one of them Cysteine, Glycerine, and Glycine. Those are the three amino acids that's used to produce glutathione. Those three are not even in the part of the eight essential amino acids. So if you take cysteine and the glutathione topical version that we have, the cysteine is not going to be used up to produce glutathione at all. It may be used up for some other components, but not for [00:41:00] glutathione. I would suggest that if you're doing that part, then save your money and just improve your diet,

  right? If you have the money, I would rather you invest in those eight essential amino acids. Those are much better to do that, like Lucid and Proline. And so those are much more better to for you to use it on a daily basis. I'd rather you spend the money on that than to spend the money on the SysTeam.

  Michelle Oravitz: Got it. And then what are some of the foods and, that you would recommend for the glutathione diet?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Michelle, I've been told not to advise people on diet

  Michelle Oravitz: Okay. Thank you

  Dr. Nayan Patel: is worse than the religion and politics. So I'm going to tell you one thing. All right. So everybody has a, has an AI robot. Everybody has access to AI robot.

  Go type it up.

  Sistine rich foods.

  Michelle Oravitz: Sistine Richards

  Dr. Nayan Patel: You're going to get your vegan choices, vegetarian choices, carnivore, [00:42:00] paleo, Atkins.

  I don't know what a longevity diet.

  I don't know. Don't die diet. I, I don't know. There's so many diets out there right there right now. All these

  diets are going to be satisfied if you just type in the word system food and see what food are you willing to eat and make and have a variety of foods from that list

  that you consume on a daily basis.

  Like what's in that list? I, you know, on an everyday basis, every single day.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah

  Dr. Nayan Patel: in there, asparagus in there, there's oysters and chicken and turkey. And I mean, you can name it, right? There's so much stuff is in there that you can consume.

  It's not a small list, right? But you have to make it a part of the routine.

  But that's just one thing. That's just one thing. The second part, which is utmost important, is limit. Limit your exposure to toxicities,

  Michelle Oravitz: yes true [00:43:00] Oh,

  Dr. Nayan Patel: pure. Right is important and because of that guess what my technology I even dove into the skincare as well

  because because most of my customers were females.

  Well now they are like 50 50 today But at that time all my customers female and they look at the technology and say hey Can you give me all the antioxidants for my face as well? I said sure. It's that's easy, right? So I just went got all the antioxidants and I said, okay Put it squeeze the size right so I can shove a whole bunch of stuff into this couple of products And so I have like seven or eight different antioxidants in full concentration and some are even more in like two creams

  right And then two of the serums I give like 10x of what you what you get from any of the products in the marketplace today so I give you a vitamin c and glutathione in a very high concentration to your skin Gets your skin completely disperses really really fast and gets gets to the all the skin in your whole body And so anyways, so I

  did that [00:44:00]

  Michelle Oravitz: if you do that, To your face, is that the same thing, the same technology that will get glutathione in your cells? So it's kind of like two in one?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: So it is, it is it's the same technology, but what we have to done is we have to identify the speed and how deep I want to go inside. So

  the skincare is more

  for,

  Michelle Oravitz: different. It's more

  Dr. Nayan Patel: yeah, but I would always say that if you're using both that do not double up, do not double up, right? If you're using both that

  your skincare routine, as is the way it's been introduced to you,

  and then just add on the, the top of glue that just once a day.

  Michelle Oravitz: I

  Dr. Nayan Patel: And you, and you still get the, I mean, you get full benefit. That's the ultimate Longevity hack is what I call

  them, right? Cause the beauty is inside out.

  The ultimate longevity hack is you do the full skincare routine

  and just do once a day of the glutathione. If you don't do the skincare routine, just the glutathione twice a day is, is, is, is what you need.

  That's an ultimate bio is, [00:45:00]

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, that's great.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: I have.

  Michelle Oravitz: Well, listen, I mean, I'm curious. I'm sure people listening are very curious, how can we find out more? How can we buy this stuff and get ahold of it?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Absolutely.

  So, my website is oral wellness. com. A U R O wellness. com. Go to the website. There is a two part on the top is skincare and wellness. Otherwise you can go to oral skincare. com as well. The same thing. My urge is that if you are any of this patients that is Not able to give up monitor conveniences or you may suspect that you may have low glutathione levels I would probably strongly suggest you try it for 30 days

  It is,

  we do offer a hundred percent, a hundred percent money back guarantee.

  We don't charge shipping and handling. We'll refund you everything, right? We will, we will do full refund of everything. Cause I just want people to try it out. And once you try it for 30 days and if you see slight benefit of [00:46:00] it then it's the best thing that can happen to you for the rest of your life.

  It's one thing that I have, I have customers for now for 17 years, since the first we discovered this product. That will, that's like a, it's a go to product in the arsenal. It's like, it's always there. And I'll tell you, I'll give you another analogy right now, because I wanted people to really understand what this is, because as you age, your body is deteriorating, is diseased, and it is, is, is breaking down, right? It's like. You go to your, when you go to your home you leave your door open. And as soon as I leave the door open, the dust, the wind blows the leaves inside. And so what you do is you bring your vacuum out or your, or your broom out and start sweeping and guess what? There's more dust and more leaves coming out.

  Right?

  So what do you do? I'll say, Oh my God, I forgot to close the door. Once you close the door, you can literally clean the whole house from inside and make [00:47:00] it brand new again.

  Right? Oxidative stress, oxidative stress, production of free radicals is the opening of the door analogy in your body. Oxidative stress is not doing anything, but it's allowing every single thing to come inside your body. And destroy the body from inside and unless you block that and close it up

  You cannot buy your body does not heal from inside, right? So the glutathione is actually closing the door is actually closing the door and then allowing your body to what to start getting? Cleaned up from inside and start repairing itself inside So at the bare minimum at the bare minimum if you do for four months You're going to have every single day Products in your body, every single cells, organs, every single thing you're going to have allowed them the chance to [00:48:00] regenerate self.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: after four months, yeah, it's after four months, it's like game over. So I have people that even today's they, they said, I know what I have to do. It's just that I just keep on forgetting.

  I said, that's okay. You know, close the door first. You know, it's, it's no fun sweeping and wrecking your house every single day.

  Michelle Oravitz: No, no, it's not. I agree. Wow. This is amazing. Really, really fascinating information. I just love the fact that you have a background from, from ecology. I mean, that you understand it really from the inside out and that you were able to apply technology and really understand it from your perspective and that you had these ideas to create a product like that, that's really cool.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: and I, I wish I had this product when we were going through our early on in my life because my wife had a hard time conceiving and it took us nine years to have a first

  son. Yeah, and it's not that we were trying for nine years. It's just that [00:49:00] after marriage, it took us nine years to have the first son and we only tried for maybe about a couple of years before.

  And then. We did, I think we did one, one, I think two IVF cycles.

  And I said, this will be the last one. We'll never do it again because I know the damage it causes to the human body.

  And I wasn't the one suffering, but I know it was going to destroy her body for the rest of her life. So I was not willing to put up with make her go through the process, even though it was like something that is so blissful to you, right? When you have a kid.

  So, yeah, we did all the traditional because I was pharmacist. I knew I'll do all the hormone therapies. I did all the hormones

  correctly. Everything was just fine, but she just was not producing any follicles. The follicles were there, but they're not producing any eggs.

  I knew that it was oxygen stress, but at that time I had nolu thi product in

  me. And So uh, it is just so unfortunate, right? But today you have that if you are a young person that is trying to conceive you have this thing, [00:50:00] at the very least, just use it for a few months. It gives it by the chance. And and, and hopefully you have a healthy baby. That's, that's always my

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, that's the hope. Yes. And sending all of that good, good energy and good thoughts to everybody listening. So thank you so much, Dr. Patel for coming on. This is a great conversation. I will have all the links to the website and everything in the episode notes for people to view if they want to stop, stop the car and then go look, but thank you so much for coming on today.

  This is a great conversation.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Appreciate your time today. It's my pleasure to be here today. Thank you. [00:51:00] [00:52:00]

EP 327 Why Unexplained Infertility Is a Symptom, Not the Problem

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by world-renowned fertility specialist and Harvard-awarded scholar, Gabriela Rosa @dr.gabrielarosa, founder of The Rosa Institute. Gabriela has dedicated her career to helping couples overcome infertility, miscarriage, and failed treatments to create healthy families. With over 20 years of experience, her Fertility Breakthrough Program™ boasts a remarkable 78.8% success rate, even for couples who had previously faced long-standing fertility challenges.

In this episode, Gabriela explains why infertility is a symptom of deeper health issues and shares how addressing these root causes not only improves fertility but also enhances overall health. She also delves into her innovative, evidence-based approach that combines modern science and natural medicine to deliver transformative results. Be sure to tune in for this enlightening conversation packed with practical advice and hope for anyone navigating the fertility journey!
 

Guest Bio:

Gabriela Rosa @dr.gabrielarosa is a world-renowned fertility specialist, author, and Harvard-awarded scholar. She is the founder of The Rosa Institute and creator of the Fertility Breakthrough Program™, which has transformed the lives of over 140,000 couples in 110+ countries. Gabriela’s work focuses on addressing the root causes of infertility using an evidence-based approach that combines modern science with natural medicine. With extensive training in reproductive health, naturopathy, and public health, Gabriela is passionate about empowering couples to achieve their dream of parenthood while improving their long-term health and well-being.

Websites/Social Media Links:

Website: https://fertilitybreakthrough.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FertilitySpecialistGabrielaRosa 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.gabrielarosa/ 

Fertility Breakthourgh Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fertilitybreakthrough/ 

Fertility Breakthourgh Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/rosainstitutefertilitybreakthrough 

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] Michelle Oravitz: Welcome to the podcast, Gabriela.

  [00:00:06] Gabriela Rosa: Thank you so much, Michelle. It's so lovely to be here.

  [00:00:09] Michelle Oravitz: So lovely meeting you. We just had a really nice pre chat and I would love for you. I always like to hear an origin story. I would love to get your background and how you got into the work that you're doing right now.

  [00:00:23] Gabriela Rosa: And sure. Look, I think if for me, I've been doing this work since 2001. So it feels like a very long time, probably because it is. I, when I start seeing my page, my, my patience, babies graduating from university. I'm

  [00:00:37] Michelle Oravitz: Oh my God. That is crazy. Cause you look so young.

  [00:00:41] Gabriela Rosa: Oh, thank you. It must be all those herbs and nutrients, you know, but, um, it's funny because like, that's exactly last two years ago, I had this experience of like seeing, literally seeing one of my babies graduating from university and thinking, Oh my God, where did the time go?

  [00:00:59] You know, like, [00:01:00] that's just crazy, but, um, but it's, it's been wonderful. It's been a wonderful journey. Um, I don't know that I have. In a way, I think that, you know, we, as, uh, Steve Jobs says, you can't, or said, you can't join the dots in advance. You know, sometimes you can only join the dots in retrospect. And as I look back, I think, you know, I don't know that I planned to be where I am, but in a way I plan to be exactly where I am, if you know what I mean.

  [00:01:32] It's a very strange kind of

  [00:01:35] Michelle Oravitz: It found you.

  [00:01:37] Gabriela Rosa: certainly found me, that's for sure. Um, and it was really through my experiences with patients that That it shaped the specific area that we focus on because we really only treat couples who typically have been experiencing infertility, miscarriage, failed treatments, and really have, you know, have tried everything and nothing has worked like that's who [00:02:00] we treat.

  [00:02:01] And it certainly didn't start out that way. My, my passion when I first started doing what I do was that I wanted to make sure We had a contribution to making the world a better place, one healthier baby at a time. And I really had in my young mind that I wanted to help as many people who wanted to have a baby to prepare, to do preconception preparation, to be the healthiest version of themselves because we know epigenetics matters.

  [00:02:27] We know that the way in which, you know, uh, prospective parents go into a conception attempt and certainly conception in general will. either increase or improve the health of a child or, or decrease it, you know, there is no zero net some kind of effect. There's only ever always positive or negative effects.

  [00:02:48] Neutral effects are generally kind of weighed down to negative effects. So for me, and I'll talk more about that if you want to, but, you know, for me, it was that whole idea that I wanted to ensure [00:03:00] That we were making that contribution. And it was interesting because although some people were really interested in being the healthiest that they could be, most people were not, most people are like, Oh, this is just too much work.

  [00:03:13] Let's just start trying. And if we have a problem, then we can do something about it. And that was never really my attitude towards it because the way that I see certainly the work that we do. There is another layer to it, which is not so much about the physical and the functional. Although, of course, we address that our program has a 78.

  [00:03:32] 8 percent success rate for people who previously, you know, were infertile, lots of failed treatments and all of those things. And we validated those results through my masters in public health at Harvard. So we know that, you know, what we're doing certainly makes a difference. But. It really, for me, the undercurrent and the underlayer of why I wanted to do this work was actually for self actualization of the patients who came to us, you know, it was for really being [00:04:00] able to reach one's full potential in terms of health and how that impacted other areas of their life.

  [00:04:06] And that's how I wanted to work. And the people who were coming in for preparation really were not into that kind of work. And so I started to see that the people who are more in alignment with the work that I wanted to do and the legacy that I wanted to leave in the world were the people who were having difficulty.

  [00:04:27] And so I started to kind of focus more and gravitate more towards, you know, those, those challenging experiences and how to help people overcome them and, Transition and almost kind of transmute what they were going through. And about five or six years into it all, I had a patient who really changed the trajectory of my whole career.

  [00:04:52] And she had been referred to me by a friend who thought that she should have a conversation with me. She had been infertile for [00:05:00] 10 years. She had done multiple failed IVF cycles at the time. And even though now I talk about that case and it's kind of like, Every day in the office for me at the time, it was the first time that I was seeing that.

  [00:05:11] And so I was like, Ooh, I don't know that we can help that kind of sit or that I can help that kind of situation. You know, I don't know that there's much that I can do, but she was really insistent and quite adamant. I actually talked to her the other day and told her this story because she didn't even know.

  [00:05:25] Yeah. And she was like, Oh my God, that's so amazing to know. But you know, it's, um, what I ended up happening was that because she was so insistent at doing something, she said to me, she said, look, it's going to be my last try. I'm not going to do any more treatment after this. You know, I'm getting older. I don't want to continue this.

  [00:05:43] It's been long enough. So I said, look, that's fine. Let's do what we need to do and we'll see what kind of result we get. And Three months later, after years of nothing working, she was actually, it was about four months later, she was pregnant and I was like, Oh, okay. So there's, there's something here, you know, but then at the same [00:06:00] time, I thought, Oh, that's, that's strange.

  [00:06:02] I actually doubted my own, my own results, you know, I was like, Ooh, I don't know, I don't really know if, um, if this is just one of those. Luke situations, you know, one of those kind of like random occurrences. But then there was another patient who came to me not long after her, who was infertile for 19 years and yeah, and then I was really like going,

  [00:06:25] Michelle Oravitz: Wow.

  [00:06:25] Gabriela Rosa: I really don't think that I can do anything for you.

  [00:06:27] She was 44 by the time she came to me. I had a conversation with her. I said, look, it's not usually, obviously what walks through my door is not 19 years of infertility, but just recently I had a lady who had been trying for 10 years. We can give it a go and see what happens. And we did that. About five or six months later, she was pregnant.

  [00:06:46] And so I was like, okay, now to, you know, randomness can occur, but to is a bit like a lot. And so, um, and so I started to, after we had that, that success, so I had that kind [00:07:00] of experience. I started to then really decide that, okay, you know what, I'm only going to treat people who have been. Trying for more than two years and nothing has worked.

  [00:07:09] And I did that for many, many years. And when I finally went to do our study for the for the fertility breakthrough program and its results when I was doing my masters at Harvard, we realized that Yes, we had a 78. 8 percent live birth rate for people who had been infertile for almost four years on average, plus or minus almost three years.

  [00:07:34] So it really helped me to realize that, okay, this definitely makes it, you know, what we do and the methodology that we use, and that obviously I've developed over the years. really does make a difference to address these really difficult, complex cases of couples who, and individuals as well, you know, sometimes we do get solo reproduction patients who come to us who have been experiencing FALD, or egg [00:08:00] cycle, or IVF cycle, but mostly couples who know that there is more that they kind of intrinsically know there's more they can do, but they don't know what.

  [00:08:08] And they also are very unclear typically about why it's not working. You know, they have these unexplained diagnosis of either infertility or failed treatment or miscarriage, and they keep being told, Oh, everything is normal. Just keep trying. And we know that clearly, What is normal is that you have sex, you get pregnant, you hold your baby, that's normal.

  [00:08:33] A deviation from that tells me that, okay, there's, there's more that we need to ask in terms of what's going on here and certainly more that we need to answer if we're going to get somewhere. So that's how it all started. And I guess that's how it's going, you know,

  [00:08:50] Michelle Oravitz: Sorry. I had to mute myself because of the noise outside, but that's awesome. I mean, those stories are pretty amazing. I mean, really, [00:09:00] really like shockingly amazing. And a couple of things came to mind as you were talking about it. And I love the fact that you were saying about really approaching a person that To make them more vital, like to really improve their overall wellbeing.

  [00:09:16] And rather than just focusing on disease, you're really focusing on their health and seeing them in almost a positive light. And it is actually, we don't really notice this, but it is actually a perspective. of many healthcare professionals or like older types of healthcare, like not older, um, I guess more like conventional.

  [00:09:38] Sometimes they'll focus more on the symptoms and we always say like root cause versus symptoms rather than just focusing on treating disease. It's like treating health and really kind of a more positive way to approach the journey.

  [00:09:54] Gabriela Rosa: You know, what's interesting is that, you know, we see these days that [00:10:00] fertility, and I say fertility rather than infertility. Fertility is highly medicalized, right? So it's, it's about finding the problem and treating a problem as if The ovaries and the testicles, i. e. the egg and the sperm, were the only parts that make this process happen.

  [00:10:23] And we know that it's not. And, you know, what's interesting about it, and I think that, you know, to speak to what you're talking about, the issues here are so much greater than where we find ourselves, because it's a, it's a healthcare system problem. The reality of it is that when it comes to prevention, typically public health is focused on prevention and the healthcare system is focused on the treatment of disease.

  [00:10:50] And we see that when it comes to fertility a lot and what ends up happening as a result of it is that It really is just [00:11:00] focusing on like, it's almost like, you know, you've got a sore finger. Okay, let's chop that off and fix that problem. Hopefully you don't get to chop it off, but you know, that's typically how it, how it's approached.

  [00:11:11] And so what ends up happening is that the entire context of the human being that is meant to produce the result of, which really fertility is a, is an outcome. But it's also a retrospective outcome. You know that it's you're holding a baby once you are, like whatever happens before that moment happens is essentially a part of what is going to lead to whatever outcome you have.

  [00:11:39] And so I always talk about it from this perspective. If you are experiencing Challenges in terms of getting pregnant, keeping a healthy pregnancy to term, these are end results of many biochemical chain reactions that start all the way, you know, way before the result is meant to occur. What IVF tries to do is [00:12:00] immediately work from like the immediate part that you can see, i.

  [00:12:03] e. egg and sperm. But the reality of it is that there's only so much leverage when it's not very much that you can get from only trying to address those cells, as opposed to all of the biochemical pathways that are leading to the creation of the cells in the way that they are. And that's part of why IVF in its, on its own, often fails, because one, it's not looking and addressing What are the reasons as to why we need IVF to begin with?

  [00:12:31] And what is it that we need to do to improve the chances of conception occurring, whether it's via natural conception or via IVF? I also want to really kind of underline and highlight the point, the point that whether we're talking about any kind of reproductive challenge, whether we're talking about infertility or miscarriage or failed IVF treatments, It's almost like those are clues.

  [00:12:57] They're not results. They're not the outcome because the [00:13:00] outcome of reproduction is a baby. So if we're having failures in that process that are leading us to not hold our baby, it tells us that, okay, the clues that we have are the symptoms that we're experiencing. Infertility, miscarriage, failed treatments.

  [00:13:18] Those are symptoms. Right, really to a large extent. And what that means is that we need to treat them as such, because if we don't address the red flags that are infertility on its own, miscarriages on its own, and failed treatments on its own, because failed treatments is relevant here, because the moment that you have an egg and a sperm together, you have an embryo. You have a baby right in that moment. You have a baby when you transfer an embryo for a for treatment, you are pregnant at the time of transfer. No matter what you are pregnant. So if [00:14:00] you don't see a positive pregnancy test. That tells us that implantation has failed and that tells us that, okay, there's something there that we need to address.

  [00:14:10] Why is it failing? Most doctors, most providers don't care about it. They literally just say, oh, you know, it's a like, it's a numbers game. It's the luck of the draw. Just keep trying. Everything is normal. Just keep trying. When I hear that, literally, this is why I have so much gray hair. Because when

  [00:14:27] Michelle Oravitz: But you have beautiful skin.

  [00:14:31] Gabriela Rosa: when I hear that, I just go, Oh my God, like, how can we keep believing this lie that everything is normal, just keep trying whilst we're having very clear symptoms, infertility, miscarriage, failed treatment, that things aren't quite right.

  [00:14:45] What we also know about these symptoms, and I like to call them symptoms because really, That is what they are. They're telling us that there is some imbalance within the system that often left unaddressed will lead. [00:15:00] It's not may lead. It is will lead to other health conditions being developed in the long term.

  [00:15:06] And we know that being studies about this that show that. For people who have an infertility diagnosis and just bypass it with any other kind of treatment rather than addressing IVF etc, rather than addressing the issue, what happens is that the risk and the rate of all cause mortality in the future is higher.

  [00:15:32] So people who are diagnosed with infertility who don't treat it. actually die from all other causes, cancer, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, at a higher rate than people who actually address their problems. And this was demonstrated to happen and be true for females and for males. So literally, if you're not addressing infertility as a symptom, you are digging [00:16:00] yourself a hole sooner and at a younger age than you otherwise would want to.

  [00:16:04] Now, I know that this is unpopular and most people are going to feel very confronted by hearing something like this, but the reality is that, sure, you can go and bypass infertility and the symptoms of infertility and go into IVF and get a baby. But are you going to have the quality of life and the ability to be here to raise that child in the long term?

  [00:16:26] That's a very important question that people need to ask themselves before they simply just jump onto, you know, overcoming the issue with a band aid and just fixing it as opposed to actually truly addressing the root cause of the problem and finding what is the problem. You know, because there are things, for example, if you have antiphospholipid syndrome, which increases the risk of miscarriage, that's also a marker for cardiovascular disease in the long term.

  [00:16:57] So you're literally like, if you are [00:17:00] ignoring it for, and just take heparin, take whatever to be able to actually take home a baby and not really addressing the underlying concerns that your body is telling you than a present. Well, You are certainly increasing your risk of cardiovascular disease in the future.

  [00:17:16] And like that, there are many other examples. I'll give you an example of insulin resistance. You know, like I was diagnosed with PCOS when I was 18, I had to really understand how to take care of my body in the best possible way to have regular cycles, despite being told by a medical doctor that. I probably would never have Children.

  [00:17:35] I was able to conceive two babies twice, literally one and two kind of attempts later by understanding what it is that I needed to do in a holistic way for my body. Now, had I not done that and just jump bypassed the problem with taking metformin, not that I'm saying it can't be a part of the solution, but it can't be the whole solution, right?

  [00:17:56] I would have probably at this stage in my life right now. [00:18:00] Have pre-diabetes or have already have diabetes because we know that insulin resistance leads to pre-diabetes, which leads to the development of diabetes and that women with PCOS have and are at highest risk. Now by me ignoring my insulin resistance, yes, I'm increasing the risk of implantation failure.

  [00:18:20] infertility and diabetes in the long term. And like I said, if I don't address that at the, at the point in the time that it matters to overcome fertility concerns and fertility challenges, I am choosing diabetes in the long term. So, and we know that one of the biggest killers in the world these days is diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and cancer.

  [00:18:43] And there are many cancers that are associated with the insulin resistance condition, resistance conditions and pre diabetes. So again, you know, I already have a family history of cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and cancer. Do I want to add to that? No, thank you.[00:19:00]

  [00:19:00] Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. I mean, wow. You know, this is such an important topic that you're bringing up and it's something that I don't even think has really been brought up to this level on my podcast and I've been doing this since 2018. I mean, yes, we've, I've talked about how, like I've had people on and say almost like going through the fertility journey saved my life.

  [00:19:21] I mean, so yes, people have acknowledged it, but to this detail that you're mentioning, I think it's just so important for people to hear. And I think it is important. It's one of those painful truths. It's something I apologize about the noise behind me, but, but it is, it's one of those painful truths. And I think it's important for people to face it and acknowledge it because ultimately you can ignore it, but it's going to come back.

  [00:19:48] It's not like ignoring it makes it go away.

  [00:19:50] Gabriela Rosa: exactly. And I think that that is, you know, if, if people take nothing else out of this conversation today, I think what's important is to understand that you [00:20:00] cannot bypass infertility and still be healthy in the longterm. You have to work with your body to understand why is it giving you these symptoms?

  [00:20:08] What is it that you can do about it? Not just hearing a doctor say, Oh, everything is normal. Just keep trying. And yet having completely either it. Out of range or out of optimal range test results and continue to think that, well, IVF must be the next solution because it is not. IVF can be part of a solution and it's a wonderful part of the solution for couples who really, truly need it.

  [00:20:33] And truly, it was developed for women. with tubal factor infertility. So people who had blocked fallopian tubes for some reason, it wasn't developed for the variety of fertility concerns or issues and, um, causes that we have today. So we can't just expect that we are going to bypass the problem and are going to have absolutely no negative [00:21:00] effect in the long term.

  [00:21:01] And I think that that's a really important thing for people to understand is that. Yes, you might use it as a way to support a process, but not without addressing, and certainly not by ignoring what's causing it to be needed to begin with. I think that one of the biggest things, and for me this is, you know, something that I'm exceptionally passionate about, is helping people get answers.

  [00:21:28] you know, we even have a full free program that we give to people. That is a four week program. It's called the fertility challenge. It's completely free. It's literally worth thousands of dollars. And what it does is it helps people to understand, okay, let's understand the diagnosis. For you. Let's understand what are the things that are not working in the way that it needs to and how to change that.

  [00:21:53] You know, the objective really is to get answers, get clarity, to be able to personalize the [00:22:00] implementation of whatever it is that you need to do so you can conceive however it is that you're going to conceive and finally hold the baby. Not continuing to go out and around in circles until you run out of time completely, because that is sadly what happens to so many women, so many couples, they try, and I talk to them all the time, and it's heartbreaking, you know, people who have been trying for 10 years to have a baby and feel like, gosh, I'm at the end of my rope, I need to figure out how else I can do this, or I'm really come to terms with never having a baby, you know, like this is the decision and the place that so many of the patients who come to Mirat and I so hope and wish that people can actually have this clarity, have these epiphanies way before they are at that stage.

  [00:22:47] stage where they literally have their back in a corner and there's nowhere else to move. So those are important things for me. I think that it's, you know, getting clarity and getting answers is the number [00:23:00] one thing that's actually going to enable you to implement the right strategy in terms of treatment because you can line up.

  [00:23:09] 10 men with poor sperm morphology. And you can have 10 reasons as to why that sperm morphology is problematic in all of those different men. Right? So it's not one It's size fits all. Exactly. I didn't know for somebody, let's say that they have heavy exposures to like, I've had farmers in my program, you know, heavy exposures to heavy metals and, and heat and, you know, all sorts of things.

  [00:23:34] And then I've got doctors, heavy exposure to radiation and so on. So, you know, it's, it's one of those things that you really have to understand the context specific need for the patient to be able to properly and effectively address it. Otherwise you're literally just trialing and erroring until.

  [00:23:53] Unfortunately, many people run out of time altogether. 100%.

  [00:23:58] Michelle Oravitz: I mean, I think that [00:24:00] the biggest problem is that people just don't even know what they don't know. So they go to doctors and then, I mean, I was one of them and people know this, you know, my listeners know this. I've been on the birth control pill and that was like my solution to irregular periods and it was just like, take this.

  [00:24:16] And this is the only thing you can do. And apart from this, there's nothing you can do. And that's, um, you know, such a straight statement and such a definitive statement. Statement that I don't know better. So I just believe it. And then until years later, I find different modality and realize, Oh no, there is something I can do.

  [00:24:34] So like

  [00:24:34] Gabriela Rosa: There's lots.

  [00:24:35] Michelle Oravitz: I didn't know. I did not know what I didn't know until I knew. And so this is why I love having people like you on here, bringing light to this because people need to hear this. Cause I think it's going to start to like light up something in their minds. It's like, Oh, wow, this is something that I can really.

  [00:24:53] Look into that's number one is people don't know what they don't know. But also number two is that they don't even know they can [00:25:00] do anything about it. Then there's a lot of things that you could do about it. And you know, there's so many people say like, Oh, there's nothing you can do. There's no cure. And a cure is kind of like a, you know, very definitive word, but treatment.

  [00:25:14] I mean, there's things that you can do that actually can impact it. It's Absolutely. that is not something that is in the conventional world.

  [00:25:23] Gabriela Rosa: Yeah. And you know what else is interesting, and I think that this is, this is important for people to understand as well, because it's, it's a, it's a bugmare of mine, um, which is when people go to their doctor and the doctor runs some tests and then they go back for results and they literally are told, Oh, we've done all the tests.

  [00:25:43] And everything is normal. Now, let's peel this back and let's explain what all the tests actually means because all the tests does not mean all of the tests, okay? And everything is normal definitely doesn't mean that if you're still not holding a baby. And let me explain what that, what I mean by that.[00:26:00]

  [00:26:00] When it comes to the fertility guidelines around the world, which is what doctors will most of the time will be following guidelines because they don't want to be seen as being stupid amongst their peers. Okay, so what happens with this? A doctor will typically refuse to prescribe or request a test result unless they feel validated in doing so.

  [00:26:24] Okay. And the reason for that, and I've had this conversation with doctors, my own providers, as well as colleagues who tell me this, they say, I can't ask for this test because it's not going to be either approved by insurance, or I'm going to be criticized for requesting this test to which I reply. Well.

  [00:26:45] What is currently in the guidelines when it comes to fertility diagnosis is that you check for patency in the fallopian tubes, so are the fallopian tubes clear, and usually that's tested these days, uh, it used to be an [00:27:00] HSG, these days it's by Hycose, ultrasound with fluid in the tubes and, you know, dye spilling, spilling through if the tubes are clear.

  [00:27:10] The other test that is done is typically your kind of general FSH, LH, estrogen, progesterone. Progesterone typically recommended on day 21 of the cycle, which also is not necessarily the right thing because some women have irregular cycles and lengthened cycles and irregular ovulation. So really progesterone should be occurring seven days post ovulation and not at day 21 of the cycle, particularly if a woman has lengthened cycles or shortened.

  [00:27:38] cycles. It doesn't mean that a woman is not ovulating in those two instances. It just means that pinpointing ovulation becomes more difficult. And that is pretty much, and then of course, sperm parameters. Most people that come to me, believe it or not, despite years of infertility, have not had a semen analysis done.

  [00:27:56] or don't have a recent semen [00:28:00] analysis that really understands what's going on with sperm right now because sperm changes literally every four months. And so you can have the flu and end up with zero sperm. It actually can happen. And you know, that doesn't mean that that person is azoospermic forever and always, it just means that they've had a severe infection that has wiped out their for a sperm cycle or for a period of time.

  [00:28:24] So Understanding that the major things, and some doctors are more thorough and some doctors will prescribe or refer, recommend further tests, but as a bare minimum, they're looking for hormonal balance, looking for ovulation and looking for tubal patiency and sperm parameters. So those are four things.

  [00:28:43] Out of literally thousands of tests that could be done and that needs to be looked at. And of course, needs to be personalized because testing is also expensive and you don't want to be wasting time doing tests for no reason. So, you know, there is a balance to that. [00:29:00] But it's not enough to have four tests and not really exactly know what it is that's being tested.

  [00:29:05] And your doctor tell you, Oh, you know, we've done all the tests and everything is normal because very little is going to be picked up unless there is some serious major issue. Very little is going to be picked up by those four, you know, four things being tested or four areas being tested. What's going to happen is that you may end up with some clues about what else needs to be tested, but Typically, it's going to be insufficient to gain a proper diagnosis.

  [00:29:34] So what happened, you know, to which what happens from there is that people get diagnosed with unexplained infertility. And hence why unexplained infertility is the major, the biggest category of infertility diagnosis, because more tests have not been done. Now, typically, and this is when

  [00:29:53] Michelle Oravitz: That, I mean, that is such a good statement. Keep going. Sorry.

  [00:29:59] Gabriela Rosa: the thing [00:30:00] about it is that it's, that's what we're talking about conception and conception attempt failures, which IE infertility is what, how it's labeled.

  [00:30:08] But when we're talking about miscarriages or implantation failure, it's even worse. Because, guess what? The healthcare system expects that a woman has to have at least three miscarriages before testing is done. Now, really? I mean, I don't know, for anybody who has ever had one miscarriage, it's traumatizing enough.

  [00:30:29] Waiting to have three before you actually do any further testing, to me, is pretty extreme. That's why, you know. It's unacceptable. It's, as a woman, I think it's just like, it's ridiculous, right? Now, the other thing then that happens is failed IVF treatment. You end up with an embryo. Most people who go into IVF, and it's not everyone, but most people will end up with at least one embryo, and there will be a decision to transfer said embryo.

  [00:30:56] If it doesn't work, and of course, if the cycle [00:31:00] gets cancelled for any other reason before we get to that stage, or even then. after getting an embryo, i. e. embryo doesn't develop, you know, doesn't, you know, there's no blastocysts to transfer, whatever it is. Every single one of those points of failure, so to speak, needs to be questioned and needs to be specifically tested and addressed because otherwise, again, you can end up with the same problem.

  [00:31:25] Now, In the case of IVF, it's more problematic because it's also extremely costly. In the United States, an average IVF cycle costs about 17, 000 U. S. dollars. And around the world, you know, the price varies. But let's just go with the United States data. And we look at an average cost of 17, 000. That is whether you get to transfer or not.

  [00:31:49] you are paying that money.

  [00:31:51] Whether you have an embryo or not,

  [00:31:53] you are paying that money. So the thing about it that I questioned is like, okay, and there are published [00:32:00] studies that show that in order to have a close to 80 percent live birth rate, cumulative rate for IVF, i. e. having a baby, close to 80 percent cumulative rate of chance of having a baby, you have to have eight IVF cycles.

  [00:32:16] That's the average. Now imagine, imagine eight times seventeen thousand dollars, I mean for some people that's a house.

  [00:32:25] Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  [00:32:25] Gabriela Rosa: Right. So no wonder people can't afford to go and do IVF. No wonder there are so many challenges. But even if you can afford it, would you rather do something else first to understand what is the cause and address that before going and doing another cycle?

  [00:32:41] You know, we have so many patients who come to us after failed cycles and go, look, I want to prepare to have another better cycle. Typically, those people end up conceiving naturally. They didn't even need IVF to begin with. And when they do, they end up having one or two maximum cycles afterwards, once you understand what the problem is.

  [00:32:59] [00:33:00] So again, hence the critical importance of understanding what is the problem you are dealing with, rather than just expecting that you are going to be okay with some unexplained diagnosis. for your expertise.

  [00:33:14] Michelle Oravitz: So walk us through, like, if you have certain cases, like the ones that you were mentioning, that are really, really complex and many, many years of dealing with. really being on this journey, what are some of the steps you would take? You had mentioned doing testing and functional testing also just for people listening, if you don't know about it, is a lot more in depth and detailed than what you'll typically get when you go to the doctor's office.

  [00:33:42] Gabriela Rosa: Yeah, no, I agree with that. And look, the testing piece, it's almost, it's a science and an art, right? Because it's almost like you need to balance. various things when requesting a test, you have to balance what is the return on the knowledge that you're going to gain? [00:34:00] What's the time spent? What is the money spent?

  [00:34:02] What are the things that are actually going to give you a lot to be able to do about it versus not very much for a very expensive test? So there's, so for me personally, and certainly, you know, in the first time method, what we use in the pro in our programs, really, what we're looking at is we kind of go back to the drawing board, we collect all the data.

  [00:34:22] We really look at everything that the patient brings from their lived experience, whether it's test results, other things that they've done, whatever it is, we collect and analyze all of that information to really first understand, okay, what has been done? Where are the gaps? Where are the places of opportunity?

  [00:34:38] What are the things that. we need action that is absolutely urgent. And one of the things that we don't actually need to address because there will be addressed as part of addressing the, you know, some of the basic major root issues, root causes. So it's understanding that nuance that actually ends up being able [00:35:00] to direct a path, particularly in those cases that we treat that are very difficult and complex because you can do a thousand tests.

  [00:35:08] You know, there's thousands of tests that you can actually do. Will you do them? No, no. So then we have to really be able to identify, okay, what are the red flags that if we were to understand more about them? Or where the gaps that if we don't know is going to change the direction of our, say, of our choices, then we're starting to look at those things, you know, in cost effectiveness, cost effectiveness analysis, which is a big field of science, really, the idea is this, if you are going to treat anyway, don't test.

  [00:35:48] Right. So for example, and there are pros and cons to this, but you know, there are certain things that you're going to treat anyway. So is there a need to test it? Sometimes there is. [00:36:00] But sometimes there really isn't and that's the thing that we really need to kind of balance in the whole scheme of things is the things that are going to be absolutely essential and the things that are not really going to be that important.

  [00:36:14] Michelle Oravitz: And what were some of the protocols or what are the types of ways that you treat people or. What is included in the protocols?

  [00:36:24] Gabriela Rosa: It's depends because it's very personalized, you know, so we will use a blend of medical. treatments and even medical diagnostics, of course. And we then are going to utilize the best of all of the worlds that we have access to, whether it's naturopathic medicine, integrative medicine, traditional Chinese medicine, lifestyle medicine.

  [00:36:44] So we then are putting together a very personalized process. That is going to help that individual that is part of that couple. Because like I said, you know, you have 10 different men, you have 10 different reasons. Therefore, we need to [00:37:00] understand what is the reason here and what do we then make as recommendations.

  [00:37:04] My biggest focus always is minimum effective dose. I want to do the least possible to get the biggest resolved. Right. That is my focus. So I'm always assessing and addressing the case from that lens of like, okay, what do I need to touch? What do I have to leave alone? Because there are certain things that, you know, for example, I'll give you an example of heavy metal toxicity.

  [00:37:26] Heavy metal toxicity is a really tricky one. In some cases, it will increase the risk of miscarriage. Like, hugely. I had patient once who basically had 40 times the, uh, elevated rate of what's kind of acceptable in a human. And essentially had had 8 miscarriages as a result, was coming to me to figure out, okay, why am I having miscarriage after miscarriage, even though I'm getting pregnant, she was only 30.

  [00:37:51] So we went on to identify that she had really high level of mercury toxicity, which was causing these miscarriages. And there were other [00:38:00] factors too. So we addressed all of it and we had to make a decision in her situation to actually go for medical chelation therapy. Because what ended up happening for her with that high level is that she was going to continue miscarrying.

  [00:38:13] And we also knew that chelation therapy would take a long time because it doesn't work quickly. It took us 12 months of treating her, doing chelation, doing retesting, more chelation, more retesting to actually get to a point where she could start trying to conceive again. So it's not everybody has that kind of time, which means that we might find high heavy metals in a person and have to leave it alone because literally we have two years until this is all over, right?

  [00:38:43] So it just depends on the situation and we have to make those critical clinical decisions that are going to really help the outcome that we are looking for. So it's highly personalized. So it's not. I don't have, we have a framework that we make sure that we don't leave things to chance, that we really are, you know, checking off [00:39:00] every box, but we don't have a, this is the only way that we do this because we have to ask and answer questions and address and adapt accordingly.

  [00:39:10] Michelle Oravitz: So I guess, um, my question wasn't specifically like a protocol that's customized, like for all, cause I get it. We do the same thing, but do you use, um, what kind of tools do you use

  [00:39:21] Gabriela Rosa: Oh, we use all sorts of things from, yeah, from drug therapy to herbal medicines, to nutritional supplementation, to exercise, to sleep, to diet, like, All of the things, you know, so in terms of what it is that we're going to use, we're going to use whatever it is that we need to use. You know, sometimes we find infections that we're not going to waste time trying to use.

  [00:39:42] I was just going to go straight to antibiotics. You know, because that's just the thing that's

  [00:39:47] going to give us the result the fastest. So, again, even the treatment part is going to be very, I guess, personalized to whatever it is that that person needs, because at the end of [00:40:00] the day, I want speed.

  [00:40:01] I want speed and I want effectiveness.

  [00:40:03] So it's, it's balancing all of those worlds.

  [00:40:07] Michelle Oravitz: definitely have a unique perspective though, in a sense that you use tools that are conventional and, um, a little bit more alternative and holistic. So it is a really great combination because you can get amazing results with both. Yeah.

  [00:40:25] Gabriela Rosa: way that I see it is like, we really do want to blend the best of both worlds. We don't want to say, Oh no, this is not something that we use. I'm not. Look, honestly, I am not, um, I'm not a purist. I'm not a purist, you know, like, I don't think that there's only one way to do things.

  [00:40:42] I think I always am looking for what is the best way to do something, you know, what's going to get us the outcome that we're looking for, balancing all of the constraints and challenges and situations that we have in front of us. So, but how? And I always say to my patients, I'm completely impartial as to [00:41:00] how you get pregnant.

  [00:41:00] I don't care if we have to use IUI, IVF, you know, like I don't care donor egg. That's not the thing. The thing is, if my patient comes to me and says, look, I'm, I want a baby no matter what. we are going to explore every, every opportunity to be able to do that. Then I also have some patients who come to me and say, I will only try natural conception.

  [00:41:21] I'm like, okay, cool. Let's explore and make sure that we maximize that opportunity. You know, what are the things that we need to do? But it's, it's, it's values and preferences of the patient that will determine where we go and what recommendations we will make.

  [00:41:39] Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. I love that. I mean, I think that that ultimately just shows that you're present with your patient because that is ultimately what it is. It's not a one size fits all because then it's something that you pre craft and just give out. But when you're present with a patient, you're able to really assess what you have in front of you specifically.

  [00:41:58] One topic that I did [00:42:00] want to actually ask you about, you know, to get your thoughts, A lot of times people will come in with like, What they say, quote unquote, low AMH, which as we know, sometimes fluctuates in itself, but people get really hung up on it because in response to how their doctors get really hung up on it, and I've seen this my, in my own office is that it really doesn't make as much of.

  [00:42:25] Um, I guess the challenge is people think it does. I've seen people with very low numbers that were told that they needed egg donor conceive naturally like multiple times after that. So I just wanted to get your thoughts on that.

  [00:42:38] Gabriela Rosa: Yeah, absolutely. It's a great question. And look, you know, what happens is that AMH levels, which measures the ovarian reserve, it's measuring the hormones that are excreted by the eggs themselves, right? And so the more of AMH you have, the more eggs you're likely to have, the less AMH, the less eggs you're likely to have.

  [00:42:56] Yeah. Does it mean that if you have low AMH that you [00:43:00] can't conceive naturally and what is the best way to conceive? Well, actually, all the science shows that if you have low AMH, typically the best option for conception is actually natural conception or IUI. As opposed to IVF. Most, and this is why most women with lower MH go to their doctors and they refuse to do IVF cycles if they are good doctors.

  [00:43:23] If they just want to take their money, they might not be that kind of doctor. Right? And so the reality of it is that Low MH in itself does not preclude a woman from conceiving with her own eggs naturally. I see the same thing in my clinic. In fact, our study, our Harvard study shows that even in the very low MH category, the less than one, the one to four is low, less than one is very low.

  [00:43:47] We had the majority of patients conceive by natural conception in that category group. So very possible, very doable. However, it's not as easy as it used [00:44:00] to be. Thank you. Right. When a woman had higher AMH, and this is also part of the reason why you need to make sure that you're addressing the full context of the patient, because a woman's ovarian reserve is just going to, it's going to decline at the time, no matter what.

  [00:44:15] And if you're treating the wrong problem, i. e. let's say, for example, we have very poor sperm quantity, quality, you know, all of those things. And you are continually treating the woman because she has low ovarian reserve. Well, you're actually leaving a lot on the table because she probably with a better sperm partner would actually have already conceived.

  [00:44:40] And so it's about understanding, again, this is where I always say fertility is a team sport. And I say that for a reason. You can't expect that a woman with lower age is going to conceive with crappy sperm. If you have a lower age, what you need is superhero sperm, right? And so it's, and [00:45:00] men's sperm quality decreases over time as women's fertility decreases over time.

  [00:45:05] So it's a, it's a matter of understanding. What it means, like, for example, if you have just low AMH and your FSH is normal on day two, then you have a much better chance of conceiving and taking home a healthy baby, whether it's naturally or any other way, than a woman who has low AMH and high FSH.

  [00:45:25] Because then, if you're having high FSH, it's telling you that already on day two, your ovaries are already struggling to release the eggs that are remaining. So that tells me that, again, IVF is definitely not the best option, and you need to figure out, okay, what else is there that you can, what are the levers that you can pull, because probably egg quality is not going to be enough.

  [00:45:51] Right? And so then you have to address and adjust treatment accordingly. But just as a full answer to your question, just as a, as a very big [00:46:00] summary, Lower MH does not mean that you can't conceive. It does signal the onset of perimenopause. Typically ovarian reserve lowers quite significantly five to ten years before menopause, and particularly for women who smoke, that happens even five years before women who don't smoke.

  [00:46:21] So it's certainly if you, if you are trying to get pregnant and you smoke, well, you better stop. Right now, because you are definitely almost kind of poisoning your chances of taking a healthy pregnancy to term at any point, like you're literally certainly decreasing your chances by at least five years compared to non smoking counterparts.

  [00:46:45] And if your partner smokes secondary, you know, kind of smoke is also going to be a problem. So, and of course, that's going to be a problem for sperm. So there's all of those, those contexts as well that we have to take into account. But yeah, it's, it doesn't [00:47:00] necessarily translate that low AMH means no baby or low AMH means that it must be a donor egg situation.

  [00:47:06] We had patients, and again, this is in our analysis, the majority of patients who had low AMH were told that they needed to have donor egg. We, in the entire sample of 544 patients, we only had 5. 6%. actually need donor egg. So, and the majority were consuming naturally. So, you know, I take that with a very large grain of salt.

  [00:47:29] Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. And this is why you have to get many multiple opinions and really do your research and find the right practitioner. Maybe a couple of different practitioners. Um, but I love your approach and I think that a lot of what you're saying, um, first of all, it makes a lot of sense, but it's also, is research based and empowering for people listening.

  [00:47:54] And so for people listening who are interested or want to learn more about your work, [00:48:00] what are the things that you offer online, like

  [00:48:03] Gabriela Rosa: Yeah. So

  [00:48:04] Michelle Oravitz: far away,

  [00:48:05] Gabriela Rosa: they can go to my website, which is fertilitybreakthrough. com and they can also search my name, which is Gabriella Rosa, G A B R I E L A R O S A. Um, they will find, I have my book, Fertility Breakthrough, Overcoming Infertility and Recurrent Miscarriage When Other Treatments Have Failed free on YouTube and Spotify.

  [00:48:25] So they'll be able to get the audio version there. It's also available on Amazon and every other bookseller. And of course, as I mentioned earlier, you know, we have the free fertility challenge program that is designed for couples who want to overcome infertility and miscarriage, and most importantly, want to find answers, you know, and want to know what it is that they need to do and how to personalize their journey so that they can hold their baby sooner,

  [00:48:48] Michelle Oravitz: amazing, and you work one on one as well, right?

  [00:48:51] Gabriela Rosa: our team does absolutely. So, yes.

  [00:48:54] Michelle Oravitz: amazing, Gabriella, this is an amazing conversation. I've seen you [00:49:00] around before. I've looked at your information before we spoke and I was very impressed and this exceeded my expectations. So thank you so much for coming on.

  [00:49:10] Gabriela Rosa: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a real pleasure.

  [00:49:13]

EP 326 How Stress Impacts Fertility and What You Can Do About It

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by the incredible Dr. Alice Domar, a pioneer in the field of mind-body medicine and a leader in reproductive health psychology. Dr. Domar shares insights from her decades of research and work with patients experiencing infertility, diving deep into the emotional and physical toll of fertility challenges and how stress can impact reproductive outcomes.

We discuss the groundbreaking research that links stress reduction to increased fertility success rates, the importance of patient-centered care, and how mind-body practices can transform the fertility journey. Dr. Domar also shares her thoughts on spirituality, the power of connection, and how fostering a sense of belonging can help patients navigate the emotional rollercoaster of infertility. This episode is packed with valuable insights and hope for anyone on the fertility journey.

Be sure to tune in as you won’t want to miss this eye-opening and inspiring conversation!
 

Guest Bio:

 Alice “Ali” Domar, Ph.D. is a pioneer in mind-body medicine, focusing on the relationship between stress, medical conditions, and lifestyle habits. She is Chief Compassion Officer at Inception Fertility, part-time associate professor at Harvard Medical School, and senior staff psychologist at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center. Dr. Domar is the author of Conquering Infertility and Finding Calm for the Expectant Mom and serves on advisory boards for Parents Magazine, Resolve, and Easy Eats. Her work has been featured in Redbook, Health, and BeWell.com.
 

Websites/Social Media Links:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/inceptionfertility/

Website: https://inceptionfertility.com/about-us/our-team/

Website: https://www.preludefertility.com/

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] Michelle: Episode number 326 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is Dr. Alice Domar. Dr. Domar is a pioneer in the field of mind body medicine. She conducts ongoing groundbreaking research, which focuses on the relationship between stress and various medical conditions, as well as the impact of lifestyle habits on mental and physical health.

  [00:00:26] She 2022 as chief compassion officer. She is also an associate professor in obstetrics, gynecology, and reproductive biology part time at Harvard Medical School and a senior staff psychologist at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center. Dr. Domar is the author of numerous books including Conquering Infertility and her latest book, Finding Calm for the Expectant Mom.

  [00:00:54] She's on the advisory board for Parents Magazine, Resolve, and Easy Eats. [00:01:00] She has been on the board of experts for Luminary and a columnist for Redbook and Health Magazines. She was also a featured expert on the online social network, BeWell. com.

  [00:01:11] 

  [00:01:32] Michelle: /Welcome back to the podcast, Dr. Domar. I am so excited to have you back.

  [00:01:38] Alice: I hear That just made my day, thank you.

  [00:01:42] Michelle: Well, I really enjoyed our first talk and it was a while ago, but for people listening and haven't heard of you, which I think is actually very few, because I think a lot of people, most people that I talk to know who you are. but I would love for you to share your background and how you got into such [00:02:00] an important aspect of the work of the fertility journey.

  [00:02:04] Alice: So it started with my parents, actually. So it took my parents, I think, seven years to get pregnant with my older sister and another five years to get pregnant with me. And there was almost nothing available in those days. I mean, literally my mom said that she had to go once a month to have air blown up her tubes, which just sounds disgusting.

  [00:02:23] Anyway. So while I was growing up, she talked about it. How lonely she was. I mean, this was, you know, in the fifties and sixties when everybody was having five or six kids and how awful a period of her life it was. And so that just sort of permeated into my soul. And when I got a PhD in health psychology and I, I sort of, my focus was OBGYN and it just felt very natural.

  [00:02:48] to go into the infertility field. And, you know, I have done a lot of research and it was funny because I just saw an interview was just published in Slate a couple of days ago, talking about one of the [00:03:00] first studies I did that showed that women with infertility had the same levels of anxiety and depression as women with cancer, AIDS, or heart disease.

  [00:03:08] And people are still talking about that study and it was published in the New York Times. easily 25 years ago. And we, you know, and there's since been other research, which backs that up. Like, in fact, you know, you and I were just chatting about the pandemic. I was part of a study that, you know, Boston got hit really hard because there was a Biogen conference, must have been in early March, of international Employees and one of the employees was from China and infected all 70 people who was at that conference and it turned out that 300, 000 people ended up getting COVID from that one person.

  [00:03:44] So Boston was hit very hard. Yeah, it was terrible. And the board of health shut down all the IVF programs. And so our patients were frantic. And so we thought, you know. Let's find out what's worse for our patients, infertility or the pandemic. And it was [00:04:00] infertility, which didn't surprise me at all because I've been working with infertility patients for almost 40 years, you know, it started out that I wanted to document how stressed our patients are, were, because. No one out there seems to get it, still, after 40 years. But I've also been trying my whole career, not only to figure out how stressed patients are, but also what are the best ways to relieve that stress.

  [00:04:29] And if you relieve that stress, the pregnancy rates go up.

  [00:04:32] So that's the whole bandwidth. And, you know, I took this new job two and a half years ago, which gives me the, Access and power to actually do the research and, change patient care the way I've always wanted to

  [00:04:46] Michelle: mean, I just love that so much because I think that a lot of us do, I think people in general or society and also the systems, like they don't really take things seriously until you present them with proof. [00:05:00] Facts and research. and the thing is, you obviously had a feeling or hunch that it was so before you did the research, which is what caused you to do research, which I personally think is also an important aspect of all of this.

  [00:05:13] But unfortunately we need the research. not unfortunate, fortunately, really to kind of make it more real

  [00:05:19] in 

  [00:05:20] Alice: make, to make, doctors and patients believe in the mind body connection, you know, because, you know, I spent 17 years working with her Benson and all his research was trying to prove a mind body connection. 

  [00:05:33] And I want to, 

  [00:05:33] Michelle: the mindfulness based, uh, stress reduction.

  [00:05:37] Alice: no, that was Jon Kabat Zinn.

  [00:05:39] Her, her Benson was, he was, he died a couple of years ago. He was famous for the relaxation response. And I think he's kind of, he and Joan Borisenko sort of started the field of behavioral medicine. and anyway, I, I worked with them for 17 years and got fully entrenched in the whole mind body connection, not just in women's health, but in heart disease and cancer [00:06:00] and AIDS and pretty much everything, Any disease that's made worse by stress can be made better by different mind body strategies. So I just happen to want to focus on women's health, and again, when I think back, my mom said that when she was trying to get pregnant for the first time, they put her on the equivalent of Valium, and she got pregnant. So, clearly, I've had a bias, you know, my entire life that stress impacts fertility.

  [00:06:28] Michelle: That's incredible. You know, it's interesting. My mom also, suffered with secondary infertility with me. So I always say I'm kind of like the proof that a woman knew in her heart that she was supposed to conceive. And she told me she, every time I ask her, she goes. Every single time I got my period, I cried, she would just tell me these stories.

  [00:06:46] And it's like, as soon as I ask her, she's right back there, you know, remembering those moments just how fearful she was also throughout the pregnancy. And that's another thing. I know you wrote a book about that. And I think that that's kind of like a whole other chapter, which we'll [00:07:00] get to, you know, people's journeys really is that it doesn't necessarily end at the positive pregnancy stick.

  [00:07:06] So

  [00:07:07] Alice: it starts, it 

  [00:07:09] Michelle: yes, yes, 

  [00:07:10] Alice: You know, that's the surprise for my patients. I mean, I still have a small private practice, but, you know, for most infertility patients, they think all I need is a positive pregnancy test. But that's actually when the anxiety starts to really skyrocket.

  [00:07:25] Michelle: Yeah, I see that a lot with my patients. I do acupuncture, it's very similar. And of course, just going through everything with them and every single, I mean, I have not yet met anybody who doesn't feel stressed or anxious during the pregnancy. And that's why I always reiterate it to them. Like, you are not alone.

  [00:07:47] Like, I don't think I've met anybody that wasn't going through this. This is completely normal. And I, you know, it's just part of the process, but it's all about strategy. And I know you talked about just like tools and different things that you can do, but [00:08:00] before we even get to that, I would love for people to know, like, what is mind body, like, if you can really break it down, what are the components of mind body and like, what does it entail?

  [00:08:09] Alice: So basically there's no division between our brain and our body. And so our thoughts affect our body and our body affects our thoughts or emotions. And, you know, they're researchers and, every system of the body, I just happened to have focused on women's health. And so, for example, we know that stress makes PMS worse.

  [00:08:29] We know that stress makes menopause symptoms worse. We know I. believe that stress contributes to fertility issues. And so there's no division. I mean, there's, there's a constant communication between the brain and the body. And so to think that your thoughts and emotions and experiences and activities don't have an impact on your body is really naive.

  [00:08:54] And, you know, I have spent my whole career trying to prove that stress [00:09:00] decreases fertility and that stress reduction increases fertility. And there are a lot of people who think I'm nuts and make fun of me and criticize me. And, you know, when I used to go to the fertility meetings, People would shun me, but I can tell you lately, since I've now been doing research that's showing, yeah, actually there is a connection.

  [00:09:21] Now I get treated better.

  [00:09:23] Michelle: Well, it's crazy because you can actually explain it. I mean, like, the more I dug into it, the more you can explain it. I mean, Your nervous system, it really, a lot of it comes down to the nervous system. And the nervous system doesn't feel safe. It gets into fight or flight. It takes away the blood from the organs to the limbs.

  [00:09:40] And, and what does that do? It impacts also the blood that flows through the uterus and the ovaries. And so that's just one aspect of it. Then another thing is cortisol. Like when that increases, actually. It competes with progesterone, a very important hormone for pregnancy, for implantation, for uterine lining.

  [00:09:58] So there's so many [00:10:00] actually explanations and then it can impact sleep, which also impacts hormones. So it's just like one after the next, it was like, you can really break it down.

  [00:10:09] Alice: It's just, it's very hard to convince people because I think maybe not so much now, but 20 years ago, most physicians believed that the medication and the surgery and everything else they did could control all aspects of reproduction. And I remember. easily 25 years ago, a colleague and I were giving a talk to a group of infertility doctors about all the research, even then showing the impact of stress on the reproductive system and the impact of stress reduction on fertility rates.

  [00:10:42] And one of the physicians actually said, I don't care how many studies you show me. I do not believe That the brain is more powerful than what we do with medications and surgery.

  [00:10:52] Michelle: Hmm.

  [00:10:52] it's interesting how people take a stance.

  [00:10:55] Alice: and again, I think younger physicians, I mean, you know, I was a boss in IVF for 20 years and they had a [00:11:00] fellowship program and it was awesome for me because I got to have input on how they were trained and how they thought. And one of the fellows who's now a practicing infertility doctor actually did his big research study on the impact of.

  [00:11:18] empathy on how patients felt. So, you know, the more impact or input one can have on young physicians or physicians in training, the better it's going to be for patients. Because I presented a study in October at ASRM showing that what patients want, In terms of patient centered care is really quite different from what physicians want.

  [00:11:44] I mean, sorry, what different from a physician's think patients want.

  [00:11:49] Michelle: Right. sometimes they think that just cause here's the thing, there's this argument and I hear this a lot, like, well, I don't really need necessarily need a doctor that has bedside [00:12:00] manners. I just want someone who knows what they're doing and I don't care how they're treating me or talking or whatever.

  [00:12:05] And I'm not so much with fertility. I'm not, I'm saying this like a conversation with my cousin about like, you know, a gastroenterologist, 

  [00:12:13] things like that. Right. 

  [00:12:14] Yeah. But, talk to us about the research, first of all, like, cause I feel like it does make an impact actually, how they're treated.

  [00:12:23] Alice: So it's, it was a study funded by MD Serrano on patient centered care because all of the research out there was done in Europe and all over the world and had not a single study had ever been done in the U S. And. The study that I pay the most attention to, or had paid the most attention to, on patient centered care, where they compared patients and physicians, and this is, I think it was out of France, that it showed that patients prioritized patient centered care over pregnancy rates.

  [00:12:54] And they were willing to sacrifice a 10 percent drop in pregnancy rate for more patient centered [00:13:00] care. While physicians said, oh God, no. All patients care about is getting pregnant. And so I've literally bopped around the world for the last 10 years saying to physicians and practice managers and nurses, patients really want patient centered care.

  [00:13:15] Like this is really important that you care for patients. And yet our study of over a thousand patients. And I think we had 39 of our physicians, showed that patients want to get pregnant and physicians think. They want this compassionate care with nice environment, blah, blah. Now, apparently in the, in the US, at least, you know, amongst inception prelude clinics, which are all over the country, highest priority for our patients is, is pregnancy. So that's very different from Europe.

  [00:13:44] Michelle: yeah, here's my question though. I have heard, correct me if I'm wrong, or let me know if you've heard of this study. There was something that I heard about, but I haven't actually seen myself. It's kind of one of those hearsay, about [00:14:00] how people who have doctors who believe in their journey or have like a little bit more, you know, belief in them doing well, that can impact how they actually do.

  [00:14:10] So there's like kind of this positive or sort of belief in a person's ability to do well. Mm

  [00:14:16] Alice: Well, that would add to me, I haven't heard of that study, but it would add to my hypothesis that stress Decreases treatment outcomes and having a physician who believes in you and is encouraging and, and positive is going to make the patient less stressed and they're probably more optimistic as they go through a treatment cycle.

  [00:14:35] And I think that will help them get pregnant.

  [00:14:39] Michelle: No doubt. And I know that, there's also a study that was done on laughter and after transfers.

  [00:14:46] Alice: Oh, it was done out of Israel. It was a great study. It was, 

  [00:14:50] I think It was, 

  [00:14:51] it was, it was, they had, I think it was actually a randomized controlled trial and I thought it was awesome. But on alternate days, they had a clown in the recovery [00:15:00] room. So for women after transfer, you know, while they're waking up and recovering, they got to see a clown and their pregnancy rates were higher, significantly higher.

  [00:15:09] So 

  [00:15:09] Michelle: Wow. That's incredible. It's just amazing.

  [00:15:12] Alice: so many studies now. I mean, it's very difficult to do research to prove that stress impacts, for example, IVF outcome, because up until the study that I'm doing that we just finished, we're handing patients like paper and pencil questionnaires. Like how anxious are you? How depressed are you?

  [00:15:30] And there are a lot of factors that, that are going to influence that. You know, one is, you know, at what point did you measure their stress or anxiety? Was it three months before their cycle? Was it the day before egg retrieval? And that makes a difference. Also, patients tend to be very optimistic right before they start an IVF cycle because you have to be optimistic to put yourself through it.

  [00:15:52] In addition, Most patients, at least in the U. S., they know their prognosis. They know how old they are. Right now, they know what their [00:16:00] AMH level. Their physician has probably shown them on a computer what their chances are. And so, if you've got a 25 year old with blocked tubes, her physician's going to say, Wow, you are so likely to get pregnant.

  [00:16:12] And so she's going to start her cycle being Very optimistic, probably not depressed, not anxious. And if she gets pregnant, is it because she's 25 or because she wasn't anxious compared to a 44 year old whose AMH is barely detectable, whose physician is like, yeah, your chances are almost null. She's going to be very anxious and depressed.

  [00:16:31] So you, you can't use paper and pencil questionnaires because they're just too subjective. And patients also fake good because they want their physician to think they can cope with a cycle. And are they really going to report how incredibly depressed and anxious they are? So we're working with this company in Canada called Otto that makes this little device that for the study, actually, it was like a little circle thing.

  [00:16:56] They were on a, on a band around their waist for about three minutes every [00:17:00] morning. I think now they're converting it. I think it to a bracelet or a ring. So it'd be much easier for us to do research, but anyway, so we recruited 240 women who are about to start their first IBS cycle. And this device.

  [00:17:13] actually measures central nervous system and cardiovascular parameters. So for the first time, we're really getting true physiological feedback on patients stress levels. And we had them wear the band for a week before the first IVF cycle, for the two weeks of STEM, and for the four weeks of their frozen embryo transfer cycle.

  [00:17:35] So we have, and the, the, the device actually collects, I think, 54. different physiological measures of, of stress. And so we presented at, ASRM in October, just the first amount of results we had, which simply compared how the patients were at baseline. So the seven days before their IVF cycle compared to how [00:18:00] they were during the stimulation phase of the cycle.

  [00:18:02] And The results, I, I've been doing research for almost 40 years. I have never seen statistically significant levels like that. Like to be statistically significant, it has to be less than 0. 05 and our levels were like 0. 00001. So what that showed was going through the STEM phase. Like when patients are self injecting with gadadotropins is insanely stressful on the body.

  [00:18:30] And in fact, we had a number, we just act, we actually just had to notify a number of patients who developed cardiac arrhythmias during the STEM phase. Because they were so stressed. Yeah, that's how stressful and no one has really paid attention to how hard it is You know the physical and psychological burden of doing an IVF cycle.

  [00:18:52] So now we actually have Physiological proof. I

  [00:18:56] Michelle: That's incredible. You know, I've said this before. I've said this to my [00:19:00] patients. Cause like your body, you know, when you hear like really loud noises. Okay. Your mind knows, Oh, that's just the truck that's moving, you know, like the fire truck, but your body could still respond completely different, almost like a animalistic.

  [00:19:16] So if your body's constantly getting prodded and poked and, you know, Your body's gonna go under stress. It's gonna feel like what's going on. I don't feel safe. Something's off Yeah

  [00:19:28] Alice: it means total stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system

  [00:19:32] And so now we have all this data. We're actually we have a meeting tomorrow, to look at because there are 3 sets of data. 1 is the difference between baseline and stem. The 2nd, 1, the difference between. Baseline and STEM and IVF success rates.

  [00:19:50] And the third is, can their stress level at baseline predict outcome as well as things like age and [00:20:00] AMH and BMI? So we, we're going to, I have to write all these manuscripts in the next few months and I can't talk about the results yet, but it's going to be incredibly valuable data. And then we're starting our second study where we're going to do a randomized controlled trial where patients.

  [00:20:15] All the patients, sorry, half the patients get the device and the device, we can turn it in such a way that they get feedback as to how physiologically stressed they are. And it literally is like, you know, red, light, yellow, green. And then it gives them, if they're in the red or yellow zone, here are things you can do.

  [00:20:35] And it's like biofeedback. And so we'll see if we can reduce a patient's stress during her IVF cycle to pregnancy rates go up. And I'm guessing. The answer is yes, because all the psychological, I can't say all, the most recent meta analyses where you just sort of take data from a bunch of studies have consistently shown that [00:21:00] women who are randomized to some kind of psychological intervention have higher pregnancy rates. So how can you say stress doesn't play a role?

  [00:21:11] Michelle: no, it absolutely does have you heard of heart math

  [00:21:14] Alice: No.

  [00:21:16] Michelle: Oh, you would love this.

  [00:21:19] Oh my gosh, you would really, really love it. Okay. So HeartMath Institute is basically it's a, they, it's an organization that does research on the role and the relationship of the heart and the brain. And the heart actually has a much larger electromagnet.

  [00:21:38] Uh, frequency than the brain does. 

  [00:21:40] And there is such a thing as heart brain coherence and also the heart rate variability shows, I'm sure you've heard of that. It like shows just the heart health. Chinese medicine has been saying this for thousands of years that the heart houses the mind. And so, But you never really understood what that meant until now.

  [00:21:58] And they actually [00:22:00] have data and they have a biofeedback devices, which I highly recommend. I think that you would really, uh, find good use for this because what happens is that basically they put it on their ear and they connect it to an app and it will, record and measure their heart rate variability, and it will also record and measure their heart brain coherence.

  [00:22:23] So what they found was that the more coherent the heart and brain are, the more we feel like levels of peace, safety, calm, ease, we can think more clearly, and the more erratic and incoherent our the relationship between the heart and the brain, the more, almost like disconnected, we feel, I guess that that's the best way to say it.

  [00:22:43] It's almost like they're, they're disconnected when we're disconnected from the heart. You know, all these things that we've been hearing for like years and years and years, but it's actually shown now is showing to be true. It's being revealed almost to be able to measure it. And so there are certain things that people can do [00:23:00] and one of them being breathing really deep and slow and connecting with that heart space so that you're breathing really deep into the heart and and then thinking about things that you love.

  [00:23:10] So similar to like the meta meditation, the loving kindness meditation, really having that connection, that oxytocin that provides a sense of feeling safe and so having that. has been shown, and that's one of the exercises that they have on the program, has been shown to help increase the coherence between the heart and the brain.

  [00:23:32] So I find that really fascinating. And, Chinese medicine, the heart actually has a very important role on the uterus. So, and oxytocin increases around labor time, so it's, it's considered to be something that opens the uterus. This is something that I would love to talk to you about one day because I love this kind of stuff.

  [00:23:52] And so I'm wondering, it hasn't really been studied a lot for conception, but it increases around ovulation. A woman's, [00:24:00] oxytocin increases and it increases after orgasm. Why? If it didn't have any role in conception. So that's kind of like my hypothesis.

  [00:24:09] Alice: I a thousand percent agree with you, and it's ironic that this research we're doing is reassessing the heart and the brain.

  [00:24:16] Michelle: Interesting. Oh, wow. Incredible. Oh, I love this stuff. So when the research comes out, is it on your website? Is that the best place to find it?

  [00:24:25] Alice: I suspect when it's published, our PR team is going to go crazy and

  [00:24:29] Michelle: Good. Well, let me know because if, if it is, I'll have you back. Like I love this stuff. This stuff is really so important. I think for people to hear, I think people need to hear this because I think it empowers them.

  [00:24:42] Alice: Well, I think, you know, for people, for any woman, man, anybody going through infertility or infertility treatment, and I know we talk about women all the time, but you know, stress affects sperm production. Acupuncture helps sperm production. 

  [00:24:55] Michelle: Yep.

  [00:24:55] Alice: the naysayers who are saying to me, Oh, there's no relationship between [00:25:00] stress and reproductive outcome.

  [00:25:01] I'll say to them, okay, but you can believe that if you want, but what's the downside of offering our patients ways to relieve their stress? Because going through an IVF cycle is really hard. Going through infertility is really hard. Trying on your own is really hard. I mean, as I said, it's equivalent. To cancer patients.

  [00:25:20] It was equivalent to the beginning of the pandemic or is worse than the pandemic. So our patients women and men who are going through infertility are suffering and there was a study at a UCSF by Laurie

  [00:25:33] Pash, 

  [00:25:34] who's, 

  [00:25:34] Michelle: They're suffering.

  [00:25:35] Alice: and you know, the majority of men and women in, in their, who came to their clinic, the majority of men and women had psychiatric levels of anxiety, The majority of women had psychiatric levels of depression and about a third of the men had depression.

  [00:25:51] So, we're talking about the majority of the people who are going for treatment are miserable. And why, I mean, you know, got [00:26:00] to Inception Prelude two and a half years ago. I'm the Chief Compassion Officer. And so I've been spending the last two and a half years trying to implement ways to improve the patient experience?

  [00:26:14] I mean, how can we relieve stress? In our patients in a much better way than it's been going on for the last 50 years.

  [00:26:22] Michelle: I love that. I think it's so important. I mean, it's, I feel like you're answering a huge call. Like really, really, really, you know, it's interesting. I really think that you would love Dr. Lisa Miller's work. slightly different. I don't know if you've heard of her. She's written, she actually went through her own fertility journey and she has a TEDx talk, fascinating story.

  [00:26:41] She talks about like just her own journey and. How she, she ended up adopting and she felt like this calling to adopt. And, uh, the moment she adopted, she conceived, but she knew that she had to adopt in order to conceive because she was meant to be with her adoptive child. It was, it's a really fascinating story, her, her [00:27:00] own personal story, but she wrote a book called the awakened brain.

  [00:27:03] And so she studies, in, in, uh, Columbia University, she actually does research on the brain on spirituality and how spirituality impacts the brain and believing in something that's higher than ourselves, how that actually protects the brain from depression.

  [00:27:19] Alice: Well, let me tell you about a study I participated in many years ago. So, you know, I used to run these, my body groups like for 25 years and, you know, 10 week programs for women going through infertility. And because I was at a teaching hospital at Harvard Medical School, you know, we had interns and residents.

  [00:27:39] So for two years we had a psych intern who was getting her PhD. And she happened to be a woman, I think at that point, probably in her 70s, who in her 40s became an ordained Episcopalian minister. And then I think in her late 60s decided to get a PhD in psychology. And so she was my intern for two years and she sat through my body groups [00:28:00] and the issue of God and God punishing and you know, what have I done comes up a lot in infertility and because I'm not.

  [00:28:08] trained in pastoral counseling, there wasn't a whole lot I could do, but having her in my groups, the patients love talking to her about that. Anyway, so for her dissertation, her dissertation was really to solve an argument that the two of us were having, in that I felt that deeply religious women suffered more with their infertility because they believed God was punishing them. And she believed that deeply religious women suffered less because they believed in a higher power. So her dissertation, you know, we were, I don't remember how many patients she recruited and she assessed their religiosity, their spirituality, and their distress. And I was wrong.

  [00:28:54] Michelle: That's interesting.

  [00:28:55] Alice: Yeah. So the more religious and spiritual the [00:29:00] woman was, the less distressed she was by her infertility.

  [00:29:04] So, So, and, and again, very statistically significant when you published it. and so I, I, I encourage my patients who may have left. The religion of their childhood to say, you know what? Maybe explore other options. Explore your spirituality. You know, if you grew up Catholic and you just don't want to be part of the Catholic church, you know, go to an Episcopalian church or Unitarian church or, you know, because having faith, having spirituality, believing in a higher power.

  [00:29:33] may provide some comfort to you.

  [00:29:36] Michelle: Right. And actually, Dr. Lisa Miller says it's not necessarily religion,

  [00:29:40] Alice: Right. 

  [00:29:41] Michelle: it's spirituality. It's really just connecting and it's, it really comes down to this. It's connecting to something that, you know, you can lean on almost like a, there's something higher that's able to, Protect you in some way or like give you guidance.

  [00:29:55] But it's one of, it's become like one of the top questions I ask [00:30:00] when I first start working with people, I ask, do you have some kind of practice where you're able to connect or some it's you do too, yeah.

  [00:30:09] Alice: And I, you know, and again, you know, I'm in Boston where we have a huge Catholic population and a lot of young women. don't practice Catholicism anymore. And so I encourage them to pursue other ways to encourage spirit and not necessarily religiosity, but, you know, I've had a lot of patients, you know, go to, for example, Unitarian Church and feel a deep sense of belonging and comfort and inclusion.

  [00:30:36] And, you know, I was watching the today show this morning and they had a psychiatrist on who was talking about how hard it is these days to make friends because of social media and how the older you are, the harder it is to make friends. And we all need connections and infertility patients tend to really isolate themselves from family and friends who are pregnant or have kids.

  [00:30:57] And so it worries me how [00:31:00] isolated our patients become. And so if they can get some kind of connection from some form of spirituality, think that's great. 

  [00:31:09] Michelle: Yeah. And actually, as a matter of fact, I've been, um, inspired lately to form more, groups. like a zoom calls for free for my patients just to, so they can connect with each other because I'm like, I'm thinking like, there's so many times I'm like, you should talk to this one. This one should talk to this one because I feel like they really, and they thirst for it.

  [00:31:29] As soon as I want to connect them. Oh my God. Yes, please give them my number. You know, they're really excited about that. So I think that community is so healing and really that connection. I think that was one of the biggest, Issues during the pandemic. I think that that was the biggest, you know, impact.

  [00:31:45] Obviously it was you know, people getting sick, but it was also that social isolation, how much we need each other. We just need people.

  [00:31:53] Alice: Remember people made little bubbles? it was, it was so great was there had already been research showing that [00:32:00] Like zoom therapy was just as effective as one on one. And so we had to switch our mind body groups to being online and they were just as effective. And, Inception dash prelude is doing a new program for our patients in conjunction with pulling down the moon, which is a yoga, based company in Chicago.

  [00:32:21] And. they, not we, they have created this online program for our patients that's like half yoga and half support group. And I think we hit almost 500 patients in a row in the first couple of weeks. 

  [00:32:32] Michelle: Wow. 

  [00:32:33] Alice: I have not seen a single negative comment at the patients. I mean, they love the yoga because it's, it gives them, you know, relaxation.

  [00:32:41] It keeps them fit and toned, et cetera, but they really love the support group. 

  [00:32:46] Michelle: That's amazing. 

  [00:32:47] Alice: they love connecting with other people. So,

  [00:32:51] Michelle: I love that. So for people listening, I mean, I can pick your brain for like literally hours. And I want to talk to you actually after, because it's just, [00:33:00] I, I find what you're doing so exciting and we're also at a time where things are really exciting. I think we're really discovering a lot about ourselves and the power that we hold as humans, like kind of, we're wired.

  [00:33:12] Really amazingly. And I think that we just don't even know how to tap into it. So for people listening to this and saying, okay, I really do want to connect with like some kind of practice that will help me get through this really difficult journey, what are some tips on how people can get started? Mm

  [00:33:31] Alice: well, you know, ASRM, which is the American Society of Reproductive Medicine has about 700 mental health professionals who are basically reproductive mental health professionals. So if you want one, one on one or couples counseling, Those are the people you should go to because they actually know what infertility is about.

  [00:33:49] And so if you go in and say something like IUI or PGT or AMH, they're going to know what that means, which is really important for patients. I mean, I happen to think that this new [00:34:00] half yoga, half support group is just a really great thing because it tackles the mind and the body. And I think most people going through infertility are feeling incredibly isolated.

  [00:34:11] Resolve, which is the National Infertility Organization, has support groups, I think, in just about every state, because I think tackling loneliness and isolation is really important because, you know, infertility impacts every aspect of their lives and if they're in a relationship, it's going to impact their relationship, their sex life, their family, their friends, their job, their financial security, their self esteem, their body image.

  [00:34:35] And No one should be going through that alone.

  [00:34:40] Michelle: Absolutely. No one should be going through that alone. And I think that also feeling like you're the only person going through that. I think when you have other people that can share or understand you on a level that like, maybe you won't see in your normal, like day to day is incredible. It's an incredible [00:35:00] gift.

  [00:35:00] To have that relatability. So, I think that just what you bring up is so important. I am a huge fan of you and your work and what you do. I think, honestly, I there are certain people that I have on the podcast that I just feel like . I feel like you're God sent, like I really do. I I do. I I feel like that some people are just kind of, they're, they're answering a greater call that's gonna impact so many people.

  [00:35:25] Alice: Okay. 

  [00:35:25] Michelle: Yeah, 

  [00:35:26] Alice: so, you know, I'm going to get off this podcast and go tell my husband that I'm a godsend and 

  [00:35:30] Michelle: yes, you do that and tell them I said, I said, so, so, so for people listening to this, and I'm sure people are going to be really like, just amazed at a lot of the things that you shared and intrigued to learn more. How can they find out more about you? How can they find out more about the studies when they do come and kind of like, where should they go to look out for those?

  [00:35:56] Alice: I'd say everything, everything is on the Prelude website. So P R [00:36:00] E L U D, I think it's prelude. com.

  [00:36:02] Um, 

  [00:36:03] okay. Yeah, so everything we offer our patients, and actually one thing that I'm hoping will be offered to, well I know is going to be offered to our patients and I'm hoping more is, I wrote a book about 25 years ago called Conquering Infertility.

  [00:36:17] And so our chief marketing officer said, you know what, I really want to, you know, offer this book to all of our patients, but it was 25 years old. And so it was definitively medically outdated as well as the names of the patients that we quoted, like popular names 25 years ago are now popular names now anyway.

  [00:36:37] So I actually spent the summer revising the book

  [00:36:40] Michelle: Oh, awesome.

  [00:36:41] Alice: and So hopefully in the next month or two, all of Prelude patients will get a copy of the book. And I'm hoping the publisher is also going to make it available to anybody who wants one because it's literally the mind body program in a book. And it's got a [00:37:00] zillion patient stories.

  [00:37:01] We interviewed a lot of my patients just talking about how they felt, how they coped, what worked for them, what didn't work for them. Because I can either see one patient at a time, or you can offer programs that can offer or books or whatever to help a lot of other people.

  [00:37:18] Michelle: Yeah, for sure. And that's such a gift. Honestly, it's such a gift. And I think the stories, hold so much power too. So I, I love that you have stories in there. For people to hear, because I think when people see examples and say, okay, like I'm not the only one going through this and it can actually shift and change.

  [00:37:35] And I do have power. And, and then also, you know, sometimes stories that are not always like exactly how we want them to come out, but we can share in that. So I think that that is really powerful and I appreciate you coming on today. I really enjoyed our conversation.

  [00:37:51] Alice: Thanks for inviting me.

  [00:37:52] [00:38:00] [00:39:00] Description text goes here

EP 325 The Role of Intuition, Energy, and Neutrality in Fertility Wellness | Lindsay Goodwin

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle and Lindsay Goodwin @fertilefrequencies explore the intersection of spirituality and fertility, discussing Lindsay's journey as an intuitive medium and healer. They delve into the concept of spirit babies, the emotional and subconscious factors affecting fertility, and the importance of surrendering to the process. The discussion emphasizes the integration of mind-body techniques and the role of emotions in manifesting desires, particularly in the context of fertility. Lindsay shares insights from her new podcast,'Fertile Frequencies,' aimed at providing support and guidance for those on their fertility journey.

Guest Bio:

Lindsay Goodwin is a fertility support and reproductive medicine pioneer who uniquely blends spiritual and energy healing techniques with scientific approaches for a truly holistic experience. With credentials as a certified master life coach for self-mastery, a certified NLP therapist, a hypnotherapist, a licensed acupuncturist, and a board-certified herbalist, Lindsay brings a unique comprehensive approach to health, personal growth, and awakening the power within.

As a certified fellow on ABORM and a spiritual fertility medium, Lindsay uniquely empowers clients to overcome health, emotional, and mindset challenges. She achieves this through a blend of evidence-based practices and energy tools, helping individuals overwhelmed by stress, life demands, and fertility obstacles to conquer anxieties, setbacks, and past traumas. Her work fosters new patterns that usher in joy, fulfillment, freedom, and the renewed energy to hope.

Lindsay's profound personal transformation further enriches her expertise. A near-death experience prompted her awakening to the divine power within us all, leading her to integrate science, consciousness, and the unseen energies for healing and abundance. Her leadership in higher consciousness, mindset, and physical health has guided countless individuals to reclaim their lives and achieve a state of harmony, growth, and fulfillment, and to know that they are so much more than just their physical bodies!

IG: @fertilefrequencies 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@FertileFrequencies

Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/7usDvORdMFGzO2EILBsBju

Website: https://garnetmoonlove.com/the-empowered-fertile-code-program/

Free Gift - Fertile Affirmations & Spirit Baby Connection: https://lindsay-goodwin-garnet-moon.mykajabi.com/fertile-affirmations-audio

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript: 

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome back to the podcast Lindsay.

Lindsay Goodwin (00:03)

Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here, Michelle.

Michelle (00:06)

Well, I love having you. We just had a whole long pre-talk. We just always connected. I always connected with you like from day one. So, and I love just seeing how you're progressing as a practitioner. And also as I was reading her bio, I mean, I really feel very aligned with how you see your healing, how you approach things, how you are staying in your truth with the

connection that you feel to spirit and also acknowledging how important that is in the healing process. And I think that, and we talked about this, there's this whole science versus this, it could be both. And I think that now we are moving into a place where we're actually bridging a lot of what has been shown that is sort of, it's being revealed almost like all the things that the ancients have been talking about for thousands of years.

is now starting to become revealed through science. And it's kind of interesting how that is happening right now in this time that we're living. We're starting to see a lot of things, even that the heart houses the mind through heart math, those kinds of things about coherence and how our heart is the the creative center and all of these different things, which I'm sure you're also very into. So I would love for you to just a quick

I mean, you've been on here before, but just a quick like background on you and how you got into this work and how you also in your own spirit, your own journey, connected with spirit and realized the importance of that when it comes to healing.

Lindsay Goodwin (01:51)

Yeah, well, Michelle, thank you so much. And absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more. We are definitely so aligned and I absolutely love the work that you're doing as well. And it's absolutely wonderful to meet other practitioners, healers, providers that are on the same path and are here to really help so many people that need it. So thank you so much. So really about how I got started. Well, I'm actually born intuitive medium. So as a child, I...

was very in tune almost as if I could hear people's thoughts. I just knew things that were much greater than what a three year old child because I remember about back when I was about three should know at that age and I also would see energy orbs. I just would know things about people know a lot about their emotions just was very intuitive. And so then as a child I grew up I run the age of seven is generally when we start to be conditioned and that's really when

The subconscious mind really starts to form is around the age of seven So that's when I kind of lost it and I started to try to fit into society like most of us And then when I was going through a divorce in my late 30s, I had a spiritual awakening I was actually robbed at gunpoint and during that experience I had an out-of-body experience

and I met what I refer to as God or universal energy, source energy, whatever you prefer to call it. And I was wrapped in gold light. It was almost like time had stopped. And the energy that was in the room, I do remember that it was radiating from behind the gunman that had the gun to my back. So the universe was also protecting them. So it was not only protecting me, but everyone because we are all connected. We're not separate. And so

It was really interesting to me. And there's also that saying, know, the universe. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty crazy. The universe always has your back. So, you know, I see things very I see things symbolically, but also that was very literal, like that saying the universe always has your back. I had a gun in my back, but there was this energy that was protecting me and the gunman. So during that time, I was not thinking about what you normally would think you would think about when you're going to lose your life.

Michelle (03:45)

That's interesting.

Lindsay Goodwin (04:10)

I wasn't thinking about my family. I wasn't thinking about my dog that I had at the time. I was only thinking about what I was seeing and I was seeing angels as well as this energy that I am speaking of this gold light. And I saw one of my spirit guides, his name is Bill. He was there and he had just transitioned out of his body back into spirit about six weeks before this had happened. And I saw my grandparents. And so I was told at this time,

that you need to wake up, you need to do what you're supposed to be doing, and you're gonna go back and you're gonna do this work. And so I remembered that, wow, I remember all these things, what I would experience as a child. It was like this beautiful kind of bittersweet sort of experience that happened because it woke me up. So after that, I really just all the intuitive stuff started coming in. I started taking a really strong interest in numerology.

consciousness and it just has opened up. And then I started getting a lot of messages from the babies. So I was a acupuncturist at the time. was and I still am an acupuncturist. And I was getting a lot of messages from babies and whether they would be in the aura of the person that I was treating, or they would actually be in the womb space and I would get messages from them.

I have regular dreams from what I call spirit baby guides that will come and share information with me about how to help people as well as people that I am working with. And so it's been very apparent and made very apparent to me what my job is. And I do not only treat fertility, I work with people on a just a very

helping people across the board with helping them really understand themselves. But fertility is a big part of my job. probably about 50%.

Michelle (06:08)

Amazing. so spirit babies have always really intrigued me. And what is it that you feel orbs or what exactly do you feel when you see those spirit babies attached to your patients?

Lindsay Goodwin (06:25)

Yeah, absolutely. So they can be sparkles. I see a lot of sparkles. The orbs of colors that I generally see will be blue, white, gold, sometimes purple, sometimes I will see pink. There have been times I have seen green. But the colors are specific. I haven't quite figured out why I only see certain colors.

Michelle (06:47)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (06:48)

but they're very beautiful. They're like, if someone is sitting in my office or if I'm doing a virtual session because I work with people globally, that I can actually see these sparkles that will actually start to just come off of them or around them. And that could be a spirit baby. It could also be a passed on loved one that is guiding that particular person on their journey.

Michelle (07:03)

Mm.

Lindsay Goodwin (07:11)

But we're talking about spirit babies today. So definitely just the spirit in general could have that sort of sparkly sort of energy that I'll see in the person's energy field, which could also be known as biofield, which would be more of a scientific term if we're talking about auras. And then I just, see a lot in my third eye. So your third eye is right between your eyebrows. If people know about chakras, I know that you do, Michelle.

And so I get these thought forms. Sometimes they'll actually be words that will come across. Other times they'll be visuals like I will see the baby. I actually will see what they look like as well as their gender. They will show me different artifacts or objects that relate to the person that I'm reading so that that person will know that I'm actually telling them something that they can link up to and I'm not just making it up.

So that's one thing I've realized over the years with the spirit babies and just the spirit world in general is that things will come through that will resonate with you to confirm with you that you're not alone.

Michelle (08:18)

Right. That's amazing. And what do you find or what are the messages that you get for people who are struggling to conceive yet they have a spirit baby around them? Like what is the holdup for the spirit baby coming through?

Lindsay Goodwin (08:33)

Well, that's a very common question and there could be a bazillion different things, but I'll tell you some common areas that I see. There could be, you know, it could be that maybe subconsciously, this is where the subconscious mind comes in, which is really powerful. You're into that as well as also a certified hypnotherapist that our subconscious mind will create energy blocks and will make it so that we're thinking things under the radar.

Michelle (09:02)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (09:02)

that could

be patterns about, maybe I won't be a good mom, maybe I won't be a good dad, maybe I won't be a good parent. And it could relate to some sort of traumatic event that happened. Maybe you had a mother that was emotionally unavailable. You couldn't speak your truth. You know, not necessarily saying that your parents were bad. It could be that maybe they just were dealing with their own things that were going on. And so you could be carrying around that trauma and not even realize that you're carrying it around. So...

Michelle (09:08)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (09:32)

People often ask me, why is it so easy for some people to get pregnant, but it's difficult for me? Why have I had so much loss? Or maybe I have never even had a pregnancy or maybe I have secondary infertility. And the answer that I often get is that I remind people and letting them know that everybody's journey is different. And when we sign up to have these human experiences, we're coming in and we're creating different experiences.

Michelle (09:51)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (09:58)

based on what our soul wants to learn in this physical 3D reality. And so if we're comparing our lives to other people and that, well, this person over here got pregnant really easily. Why is this person getting pregnant that doesn't even want the baby? Is this because everyone's journey is different as well as your spirit baby's journey is different. And so it could be a good example would be is that maybe you're someone that wanted to have a

lot more wisdom before you became a parent. Maybe you're someone that didn't want to be like your mother with your child. Maybe there was a lot of healing that needed to happen before your child actually would show up physically because you wanted to be in the best version of yourself to be able to give this child the life that maybe you didn't have.

Michelle (10:30)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I mean, there's the thing that I find is that, and I've gotten these ideas and downloads through meditation, through even going to Joe Dispenza events, because you're so immersed that you get these downloads, is that we are just simply not aware of the big picture. And we try to make conclusions based on parts and those parts of our life. so it's very hard to make a very

big picture conclusion when we don't have the big picture in front of us. And so part of that is really trusting that there's something else that does see the big picture that we're connected to and being able to surrender that. And that's another thing too that I've noticed is the surrender part. I think we're so conditioned to go after it that sometimes I like to kind of like think about, you know, the Chinese,

Lindsay Goodwin (11:26)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle (11:49)

handcuffs or the finger cuffs or whatever. The faster you pull, the more you pull tightly and forcefully, the more you get stuck. Creating that kind of flow in your life will allow you to get the lesson faster, I feel like, and then you move faster. That's what I've noticed. Have you picked up on that?

Lindsay Goodwin (12:14)

yeah, absolutely. I mean, I have a client that I've been seeing since August and we've got some really good news yesterday. Her AMH went from a 0.44 or something like that to over 1.1 something. Yeah. And it's amazing. I just, it's yes, yes, absolutely. And she's in her forties. And I just, told her, what I tell my clients is you did that.

Michelle (12:31)

Wow, that's amazing. That's great to hear for people to hear.

Lindsay Goodwin (12:44)

You did that. mean, of course, supplements help acupuncture, but you did that because you have learned to let go of things that are no longer serving you. You're starting to really trust yourself. Your body is saying, yes, yes, yes, because your mind is saying, hey, I know my worthiness. I know that I deserve to be a mom because if I didn't deserve to be a mom, I wouldn't desire it.

Michelle (12:45)

Yes. Right.

Lindsay Goodwin (13:10)

Okay, and so she is really now believing that this is truly happening for her. It's a knowing now rather than it just, I'm looking for hope, I'm looking for encouragement, will this happen? She's actually knowing that it's happening and her body is responding to it because of her mind power. So I, you know, to get back to what you were talking about, you know, with surrendering, I often tell people with manifesting, whether it's a baby, because babies are manifestations.

Michelle (13:10)

Mm-hmm, right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (13:40)

It's a partner, it's a business, it's a new house, whatever it is, it's better health. What we do, and this is challenging because we're not taught this, but as little kids, we know this. We put out into the universe that, okay, I'm gonna manifest this. You have to almost take it and put it up on the shelf and leave it there. You have to be unattached. Yes, exactly, you have to be unattached.

Michelle (13:40)

Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You almost have to forget about it.

Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (14:10)

to the how, the when, what it's gonna look like. And you're living your life and you're enjoying your magic and your light and your family and all the things that make you happy. I mean, when our perspective shifts, our whole world shifts. You can look at something one way or you can look at it another way. If you're looking at things and that things are abundant or you're looking at things of what I don't have,

Michelle (14:13)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

True.

Lindsay Goodwin (14:38)

That's a very different feeling. And we know that the universe is responding to how we feel.

Michelle (14:44)

yes. Yeah. It's the feelings. Yeah. The feelings really make a huge difference. And that's what they found actually in the research that Joe Dispenza does is because the researchers come up and talk and they say the two things that they saw, you know, the combination is thought emotions and emotional state. So that's one of the reasons why he focuses a lot on the heart and also this joy and the love.

Because when you feel those emotions, you can feel those emotions in very challenging times, yet you still can be very elevated. And I can tell you this, I I went through the loss of my father and it was a very challenging time to see him go through the transition. I knew he was gonna transition. I knew that I was witnessing to that. At the same time, I was able to get into a state of such love.

Lindsay Goodwin (15:38)

Yeah.

Michelle (15:39)

that

I felt more alive than like ever before. It felt like such a pivotal and sacred time, even though it could be judged as like this bad, dark time. And yes, it had very difficult, painful aspects to it, but the way I'm describing it now is it's a more neutral way. So you could look at something and acknowledge the pain in a more neutral perspective.

rather than looking at it and saying, this is good, this is bad. Because ultimately by doing that, or saying something's bad, you're limiting yourself. We were talking about that before. You're limiting yourself to that aspect of it. And that will impact your energy and how you're able to really show up in your life. And the energy impact can for sure impact the AMH. So all of these things that suck our energy throughout our life,

and mentally in the background are going to definitely impact the energy that can go into procreation. So it's this whole big picture.

Lindsay Goodwin (16:46)

It really is. And you know, I love what you're saying. It's about giving meaning to things. know, once we give meaning to things, then it takes on its own energy. neutral is a very powerful way of explaining it. And I know that that can be challenging as a human being because we're encoded with emotions. It's part of the experience. But when you can learn, like the Buddha says, and I'm not Buddhist, but just, know, I love

Michelle (17:07)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (17:16)

history and there's a lot of philosophies that are great, is that when you can live in that middle place, you know, rather than being too up here or too down here, you're just neutral. That's really when the manifestation happens. That's really when the happiness, that's where the joy is, because you're not attached to anything.

Michelle (17:23)

Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yeah.

Yep.

Yes, it is. It's that golden path. know, Eckhart Tolle refers to that as the present moment. And Chinese medicine can refer to that or Taoism as flow. You know, that is that golden path that is, it's neither one extreme or the other. It's here in the center. It's that neutrality.

And many different ancient cultures have been pointing to that. And many different spiritual teachers refer to that because that is the portal. And Eckhart Tolle says that that present moment is the portal really to the endlessness. So it's, it's when we're able to really let go and, know, also not the, not get hung up on the past and hold on to all of that and not get too identified with the future.

just really being in that center moment. If you think about that, if you truly, truly get into that state, you're very free. You're free. And when you're free, energetically, you're able to really connect to a wealth of power and energy to create whatever you need to create.

Lindsay Goodwin (18:47)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I have to add to that, you know, I don't know if you ask yourself this, but I find it quite interesting if we're just talking about Chinese medicine. How is it that ancient philosophers of Chinese medicine came up with everything that they knew about the internal parts of the body and the spiritual energy with no diagnostics, no MRI machine, no ultrasound, no ability to look at the blood. They were channeling.

They were channeling energy.

Michelle (19:19)

100%. 100%. They were connected to that wealth of intelligence that we all have. We all are connected to. And I love that you mentioned that because you and I are both interested kind of like in the scientific research of the spirituality and like really understanding that because it's a great tool and it could be used as a great tool. However, they didn't have that back then.

Lindsay Goodwin (19:21)

Thank

Absolutely.

Michelle (19:45)

And so that just shows, and it's actually being proven just by itself, that just shows that there is an intelligence that we are connected to, that we can connect to without necessarily having to dissect it.

Lindsay Goodwin (20:02)

Yep, absolutely. And I say this often too, if science was a silver bullet for everything, are people not able to get pregnant with IVF?

Michelle (20:12)

Right. my God, such a good point.

Lindsay Goodwin (20:16)

I mean, it works for a lot of people. I'm not anti Western medicine or modern medicine at all. I think it's great. I believe in integrative medicine. Yeah, absolutely. And that's, think what makes what we do so powerful too. We can see both sides of the coin and really help people to understand their bodies, but also understand that, wow, we've got this energy part that can't always be proven. Right. And so

Michelle (20:19)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Me too, yeah.

Yes, 100%.

Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (20:44)

you know, it's just that's, that's what people want. That is where we are going as an energy collective as integrative. It's not, you know, one side, one sided, you know, this is an integrative process that's happening because science is great. mean, there's so many wonderful, just advantages to live in this time where we have science, because for example, if someone has

Michelle (20:52)

Mm-hmm.

Yes, yeah, it's whole.

Lindsay Goodwin (21:13)

Say they have a partner that has some sort of DNA issue with their sperm and if they get pregnant naturally, they've had several miscarriages and that's painful to go through. IVF would be a great option because then we can create an embryo that is healthy and then we have a healthy baby. They're not going through that emotional roller coaster. It's not just that. I'm just giving one example.

Michelle (21:20)

Mm-hmm.

Correct.

Lindsay Goodwin (21:43)

Okay, but when we're just saying that it's just one way or the other, it's making it very limited for people. And I don't think that that's fair. This is my opinion and I know that you're on the same page too. But like, this is what we are going to see further that we go into just where we're headed as just humans. People want more of the energy.

Michelle (21:43)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (22:11)

options in health in general. You're moving away from being, I'm going to take this pill and that pill and I'm going to, you know, people don't want that anymore. I don't want that. I mean, you and I haven't been wanting that for years because we wouldn't be where we are if we did. And again, I'm not, I'm not knocking. I'm not talking bad about science. I think that, like I said, it's, it's wonderful. It does wonderful things.

Michelle (22:13)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (22:38)

but we have to open our mind a little bit more to things.

Michelle (22:41)

For sure. There's definitely a place

for everything. And I think that as you're talking about that, I'm thinking about the neutrality aspect of it, looking at it objectively and saying, Hey, you know, this is one tool and then this is another tool. And sometimes this tool is a tool that can be very beneficial, but it shouldn't be the only tool because there are other tools like energetic that we don't necessarily see that can be very beneficial. And in fact, sometimes can enhance the, maybe the medical tools.

Lindsay Goodwin (22:49)

the

Yeah, absolutely. Well, they have found studies, know, Harvard Medical School for, it was not contemporary medicine, but it's the alternative side of the medical school. They did a study where they found that they had two different groups. And the one group that followed a mind body, which what was included with that was meditations, mindfulness, as well as visualizations.

Michelle (23:38)

Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (23:38)

Hypnotherapy,

medical intuition, mean, all these energy modalities, they had a 55 % success rate of healthy babies, where the other group that didn't follow that particular program chose not to do it or just didn't do it the way that it was designed for them had about a 20 % success rate. So we really are seeing that when we are integrating, like you just stated, these mind-body techniques that

Michelle (24:07)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (24:07)

they can

really enhance these medical therapies that people are using with Western medicine like IVF.

Michelle (24:15)

yeah, it is so powerful and I'm glad that finally there's attention put on it because I think that because it's so abstract, a lot of these visualizations or visualizations being different than what you just said, like which is more mindfulness, but in general, like getting into the state of our being that is more abstract. It's not something that we can easily dissect or it's not as tangible as others.

And I think for that reason specifically, it can be very easily ignored. So I love the fact that there is data showing the evidence of that working because it's powerful and I think it'll get more people on board to do that. And not only will it help their fertility, but it's also going to help their life.

Lindsay Goodwin (25:04)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, because you know, it's I have a lot of vivid dreams, one that I had earlier this year. And I'm not religious in any way. But I get messages in there what they are. And the message was is the kingdom is within you. And we all know that if people read the Bible, or they've seen that. And again, I'm not necessarily a pusher of the Bible by any means, I'm a spiritual person. So I don't push any sort of religion. So very open.

Michelle (25:22)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (25:34)

But, you know, it's interesting to me because when I was having this dream, it was a presence, it was a consciousness. And again, I think that this was source energy God, which is all of us anyway. It's we're not separate from that, like you stated. And so there was these all these lapis lazuli stones that were coming out of what I know to be my body.

Michelle (25:48)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (26:04)

And I did not know, but in the Bible it states that Lapis Lazuli was made, that was what the throne of what God, I guess in the Bible, was actually made from. So it was very powerful and that shook me up. If the robbery and the out of body experience didn't, that one did, that we're all so powerful.

Michelle (26:04)

Mm-hmm.

wow.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (26:33)

And you

don't necessarily have to be having dreams like I do. I'm here to share these dreams. I'm here to share this information, just like you, to help people to realize that you have the power to create and be anything that you want. You have the power to heal yourself. And by no means disclaimer, am I recommending that people stop taking their medications or stop their treatment? But you do. You have the power, but it's

Michelle (26:55)

Yes. Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (27:02)

really starting to believe that and that can take some healing work, know, working with someone that can help you with that. But I always tell people when they work with me, we're not meant to work together forever. We're meant to get the work done that we're meant to do together and then you're going to be better and you're going to find your own magic. And then you're going to be able to help other people by you just being you. Yeah.

Michelle (27:04)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yes, it does happen often.

And then what are some things, because we talk about the mind body and obviously there are certain techniques, like we talked about mindfulness. What are some techniques that people can look into that can help them utilize this incredible force of their mind?

Lindsay Goodwin (27:47)

Yeah, absolutely. So techniques that I use would be hypnotherapy, which I know you use as well, Michelle, and neuro linguistic programming, which is NLP, which is being able to tap into the subconscious mind. It also is the study of body language. So it's the study like the FBI uses it to be able to solve cases and be able to tell if people are telling the truth or not.

Michelle (28:07)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (28:11)

Now that's a really powerful way to be able to work with somebody too, because sometimes you could even be lying to yourself, not even realize that you're doing it. So I'm able to see really, and it does not, we can be virtual, does not necessarily have to be in person. Energy has no barriers with us being across the world or across the country like you and I are. And so we can use these tools to be able to tell what's going on in somebody's subconscious mind.

Michelle (28:17)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (28:39)

probably are not consciously aware of. So then what we do is I use different tools to be able to help them to learn how to reprogram those behaviors because the subconscious mind doesn't know the difference between real and fake. So if you're constantly unconsciously telling yourself, like I was stating before, that I don't know if I'm going to be a good parent. I don't know if this is going to work out for me. What if I've had clients, for example, that have had maybe their

Michelle (28:41)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (29:09)

their mom had secondary infertility and they heard about that. I have one actually that's happened to and she did not even realize this. And then when she started working with me, we identified that her mom had secondary infertility when she was trying to have her. So she'd been constantly telling herself since she was about 12 years old that she was gonna have infertility, infertility, infertility. I have another client I worked with years ago that did IVF.

Michelle (29:23)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (29:36)

And she had some of the lowest AMH that I've ever seen on somebody that was young. I mean, she was under 30. And she we identified and figured out that her aunt had infertility. And she had been telling herself over and over again, she was a little girl that she was going to have infertility. Well, she did one baby with IVF, all the other ones like three more three or four more came naturally. So once she got over that

that subconscious belief that she was going to have trouble with having a baby, then she just had babies naturally. So was something that she needed to get over in her journey. So NLP, Neuro Linguistic Program is really powerful. Visualizations are really powerful, mindfulness, meditation. I do a lot of visualization with my clients as well as helping them with their chakras, which are the energy centers located in the spine.

to really identify also my medical intuitive so really identify where there's imbalancing happening and then figuring out what emotions are attached to that what sort of traumas are attached to that for example a lot of women have a blocked throat chakra which when we have a blocked throat chakra yeah it is yeah yeah exactly that will block up the womb space

Michelle (30:47)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and lapis lazuli is good for that.

And it's interesting how the thyroid impacts reproductive, organs and health.

Lindsay Goodwin (31:08)

Yep. It's the biggest one. It's the biggest gland in that endocrine system. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, we could go into endocrinology and the spiritual. That's always fun. Yeah.

Michelle (31:19)

Yeah, but also expression, know, so that expression

opening up the heart, heart opening up the uterus. I mean, there's so many aspects and that's the thing too with chakras is that yes, they each have their own indication and behaviors and patterns, but they also have an interlinking workings with each other.

Lindsay Goodwin (31:42)

Yep. It's all connected just like the Chinese philosophers of Eastern medicine.

Michelle (31:48)

Yeah. Amazing. This is so interesting. mean, I can talk to you for hours. I can keep talking about like everything, but I wanted to ask if people are interested. I know you have a new podcast, which is awesome. And so talk about your new podcast and also talk about how people can reach out to you if they want to work with you.

Lindsay Goodwin (31:53)

same.

Yes.

Yeah, absolutely. So new podcast is fertile frequencies. I created that. Thank you. I created that because I really wanted to bring more of an integration of the unseen energies of the energies of spirit babies, energetic, spiritual fertility, which by the way, is not religious, it is spiritual, it's energy. Often that's a question that people will ask me about. That's kind of why I call it more energetic spiritual fertility. So people kind of understand this from an energy standpoint.

Michelle (32:13)

I love that.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (32:40)

And so really talking with people, giving you the encouragement on your fertility journey, knowing that this is manifesting for you, understanding more about your physical body, but knowing that your fertility is way more than just your physical body. So we do get into some of the dynamics of things like egg quality, as well as IVF, talking about nutrition, different supplements.

I do talk about that, but I'm more about the energy. I feel like there's a lot of information out there about the physical side of fertility. So a lot of great content creators, like people, and of course you have a great podcast as well, that are already doing that. So there's not enough of the energy. So yeah, so that is a lot if you're into that, which if you listen to Michelle's podcast, I'm sure that you are into the energy side of fertility.

Michelle (33:07)

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

I agree.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (33:31)

And so just started that, I'm gonna have some really great experts on there. I'd love to have you on there as well. That's coming up. So it's definitely getting bigger than I think I was expecting it to. I think it's just time. It's time for this message to be out. Yeah, it's aligned, exactly. I do have a fertility program coming out as well. Of course, it's coming out in this month.

Michelle (33:46)

It's time. It's aligned. time.

Lindsay Goodwin (33:56)

And then I do have a VIP fertility program where you can work one-on-one with me and I do design a unique fertility program for you that has the physical aspects in it, but I do walk you through, help you with changing some of those subconscious patterns, helping you to really manifest the healthy pregnancy that you're looking for. And if you're interested in that, I do offer a 45 minute call where we can go through the program and I can meet you and we can answer any questions. I can answer any questions that you have.

and see how I can help. I'm only going to work with people that I know I can help. So I'm very honest about that as well. I think integrity is a huge part of this. So first step is seeing if we're a good fit. And then I also have some free resources as well. If you'd like to, I have an ebook on fertility, some seven essential steps to download, an ebook download to help you with some of those essential steps getting started on your fertility journey, or if you're someone that

Michelle (34:30)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, for sure.

Lindsay Goodwin (34:55)

has been trying for a while. That would be helpful as well. And I do have a fertility affirmations and meditation available that you can download that is a free download as well. definitely I'm now on Insight timer. So you can download it on there. Yeah. So yeah.

Michelle (35:09)

Mm-hmm. awesome. Cool.

That's great. And all of Lindsay's information will be in the episode notes in case anybody wants to find it. Lindsay, I absolutely love talking to you. I feel so aligned with your way and method of teaching and also your perspective on fertility and health.

So it's always a pleasure talking to you. Happy new year. Well, right now it's, by the time this airs, it's going to be way past new year, but it is January 1st today. So thank you so much for coming on.

Lindsay Goodwin (35:34)

you

Yeah.

Thank you so much, Michelle, and thank you to all of your listeners and so much love and encouragement. And just know that it's all happening for you.

EP 324 Unlocking the Gut-Brain-Fertility Connection

On this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive deep into a fascinating and vital topic—how stress impacts the gut-brain connection and, in turn, your fertility health. We’ll explore how chronic stress affects your nervous system, gut microbiome, and hormonal balance, and I'll share actionable tips to regulate your nervous system, support gut health, and optimize fertility. Tune in to learn how to empower your mind and body for a thriving fertility journey!

Takeaways

• The gut and brain are connected via the vagus nerve, creating a two-way communication system that influences stress and digestion.

• Chronic stress diverts blood flow away from vital organs, impacting digestion, hormone balance, and fertility.

• Practices like diaphragmatic breathing, meditation, and ear massage can activate the vagus nerve, promoting a"rest and digest" state.

• A diverse and healthy gut microbiome supports hormonal health, reduces inflammation, and enhances fertility.

• Emotional stress drains the body’s reserves and can lead to hormonal imbalances like lowered progesterone levels.

• Mindful eating habits, such as chewing food thoroughly and avoiding distractions, improve digestion and gut health.

• Acupuncture and other TCM techniques help regulate the nervous system and support overall fertility wellness.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. On today's episode, I'm going to be talking about a topic that I've talked about before, but it's a little different. And I am going to be discussing stress and its impact on fertility. Now, I've spoken about stress before, we've had many, many different episodes talking about how stress can impact fertility, and I know a lot of people say, Oh, does it really impact fertility?

Yes. When it gets broken down, absolutely, and indirectly in some ways. So today I'm actually going to be talking about the gut brain connection, how stress can impact the gut and how the gut. is super important for fertility health. So stay tuned.

So I find this topic actually really, really fascinating because the [00:01:00] gut is super smart. Actually, it has its own nervous system and it's really fascinating just how it runs. And I tend to be really fascinated by the nervous system as it is. And I think that the nervous system is one of the things that We don't really pay that much attention to, but it really does make a difference on so many factors and so many things in our body.

And really, it makes such a difference and influence on how we feel in our life and how we perceive the world as well.

And if you really think about the influence of stress on the nervous system, then you can see how it really is a Such a direct relationship. Stress is really how our nervous system reacts and responds to the life around us.

Now, I always say this, I've said this before, and I'm going to say this today again, is that it's not about

[00:02:00]eliminating stress or eradicating stress. As a matter of fact, stress can actually make us stronger. So having moments of stress, I mean, if you think about going to the gym and building muscle, One of the reasons why we get stronger is because of the stress and stress can also impact the bones and help the bones.

So having that extra stress actually strengthens the bones. So stress can actually be something that can be alchemize to help our bodies to help our life like if you have difficulties or challenges in your life, you'll find that it actually makes you stronger and it makes you smarter and it gets you to think about things differently than you would have normally.

And if you don't have that element of stress, then you don't really have that opportunity of growth. So stress is incredibly advantageous when it is not chronic when it's not all the time and we as humans and this is really like even how we learn about the body through Chinese medicine

[00:03:00] is that A lot of things in our bodies and a lot of things in nature run in pulses, it runs in rhythms.

So when you have something all the time without that break, that's when it can lead to imbalance. So when you have like pulses of stress or things that come and go, That is when the body is able to have the pulse and then it goes back into a more yin phase. I've spoken about the yin and the yang, which are really two opposing opposites that need each other in order to create harmony and balance.

And that harmony and balance is something that conventional medicine will say or call homeostasis. And homeostasis is basically a state that the body always strives for in order to thrive. And that is the ultimate. So homeostasis is that balance that keeps us in check. It keeps the hormones in check. It keeps everything in check.

Now, in order to have that, we

[00:04:00] can't have too much yang or too much yin. We need the two. And this is how we have a pulse. A pulse is something that goes back and forth. and that back and forth is what keeps things in balance. So it can go back and forth, but then eventually grow into strength. So having that stress, but then having that recovery and that combination of the two is what actually gets us stronger.

However, many cases our nervous system is hyper stimulated, hyper meaning over. So overstimulated by electronics, by sound, by things that are typically not occurring in nature if we were to be living really in accordance with nature and what we used to do in the past when we didn't have all these man made things like light at night or really loud noises from the garbage truck things that are

[00:05:00]really not Something that you find in nature sounds that you don't really hear in nature, bright lights that you don't see in nature, things that are not typical to what our bodies are actually programmed to be used to, and also to understand the process.

So when we have that extreme hyper stimulation all the time, and now I'm not even talking about the emotional stress. I'm just talking about. So I'm going to talk about the stressors that we are exposed to day in and day out that also stimulate our nervous system. And by stimulating it all the time, it actually weakens it.

It makes you more tired. So in Chinese medicine, we talk about excess and deficiency, and that's kind of like the yin and the yang. And when we have too much excess, it can lead to deficiency because the body has to process that excess. And when there's just too much coming at it at once, it can make it more deficient.

Just think

[00:06:00] about a computer. If you're throwing in so many different software and really loading it up over time, it's going to get slower and it's going to get in the way of its ability to process signals and it takes a little longer to do things.

So now that we covered that aspect of stress, there's also emotional stress, and if you notice, emotions actually take a lot of energy in the body, and so having that stress chronically of emotions, that drains the body of reserves, and it can also impact it. how we feel and impact the state of our brains.

And it also has been shown to create a more incoherent state of brain waves. And that's been studied and observed in HeartMath Institute where they study the heart brain coherence. And it's really, really fascinating work because they're actually seeing that there's a relationship between the heart and the brain and the heart has

[00:07:00] always been in Chinese medicine said to house the brain, which is interesting because nobody really understood from a conventional medicine perspective, what that really meant.

Or it was kind of like, okay, well that's, I guess their perspective on it or their theory. But now science is actually showing that that is really in fact true. And as a matter of fact, the heart acts as a brain and it can really pick up on things before the brain even picks up on them. So your heart is in a sense even more powerful than the brain itself.

Now when it comes to the brain and stressors and impacts of the stressors on the brain, that can impact a fight and flight. response from your body. So we know one thing that's really fascinating is that there's a bi directional relationship between the brain and your gut. So your gut has its

[00:08:00] own nervous system and it's called the enteric nervous system.

And your brain is connected to the central nervous system and that central nervous system gets information from the brain and it also receives information from the body. So how that is connected to the gut is through the vagus nerve. So the vagus nerve is kind of like playing operator and it has a bidirectional communication pathway from the enteric nervous system, which is our gut nervous system.

And that basically runs from your mouth to your anus. So basically it runs throughout the whole thing and it has hundreds of thousands of neurons and that is pretty fascinating. But the fascinating thing is that it is connected via the vagus nerve to your brain and your brain connects with your gut.

So when you have stressors that are impacting the integrity of the way your brain is

[00:09:00]functioning, when there are too many Difficulties and coherences 

and dysfunctional stressors 

that can impact your nervous system and also impact you to be more in a fight or flight situation. state, then that can impact your gut health as well. So when the vagus nerve is activated, the vagus nerve can get you into a more rest and digest state. And that rest and digest state is optimal for your digestive system.

And that is what you want. You want your body to be in a state of where fluids can flow freely, because you'll find that if you are in a fight or flight State your mouth gets really dry. It's like the fluids get like dried up and 

what happens is in those situations where your body perceives a danger, it knows that it can't focus on anything else, but the ability to run or to fight if you can't run. So what

[00:10:00] happens is your body automatically will start to send it. blood to the arms and to the legs and away from your organs. So that, where does that move away from?

It moves away from your heart. It moves away from your liver. It moves away from all your internal organs, moves away from your digestion. It moves away from your uterus and your ovaries. And to have yourself be in a state that is chronically like that, it's going to impact how your body is going to nourish itself and regenerate.

And that of course is going to impact your fertility health. So yes, stress can really, really impact fertility health.

But a very big reason for why is also because it impacts your gut health. And your gut health is central to your fertility health. It can impact how your body is able to process nutrients, how your body is

[00:11:00] able to get energy, how your body deals with inflammation, and how your body's immune system operates.

All things that contribute greatly to your fertility. fertility health. And it also impacts your body's microbiome, not just the gut microbiome, but it can also influence your vaginal microbiome and your uterine microbiome. So it can impact so many things and it's such a trickle effect. And that's the thing with a body that is so amazing, but also can be challenging for, you know, Sometimes conventional medicine to approach, because if you take pieces of the body or parts of the body and just focus on that part, you're just not going to get the full picture.

And this is why I love Chinese medicine is because it looks at the full circle, the full picture and how all the different parts work together. And it's like a big, huge web that

[00:12:00] intercommunicates with each other. So when you start to realize that. You don't need to really figure it out all together, and that's a thing that I do want to stress in this.

Um, no pun intended, but I do want to mention that ultimately all the things that I'm telling you is really to give you a big picture about it, but you don't have to figure out exactly how it works. It's really more an understanding. of really what stress can do to your gut.

The reason I say this is because your body's actually really intelligent and your body knows what to do. So when you get it to a state where you regulate your nervous system, and I'm going to be sharing things and to do's towards the end of this. So you can keep listening to find out.

But when you do get yourself to that state, Then your body knows exactly what it needs to do. You don't have to figure it out and you don't even have to tell the body what to do. The body already knows what to do. All it needs is an environment that feels

[00:13:00] safe for it to do so.

Another thing to note is that the brain. not only impacts the gut, but the gut can also impact the brain. So the gut can also impact our ability to produce serotonin, which is a neurotransmitter that impacts your mood and overall wellbeing. So if you have any kind of issues with your gut, it can also impact the brain and that can create more stress.

So it's bi directional. And that is what is so fascinating about this is that you can really impact your gut through your brain and you can impact your brain through your gut.

So besides stress impacting your gut, I also want to mention that it can also elevate cortisol levels, which cortisol is a hormone and again, cortisol has a lot of benefits for the body as well, but you don't want it to be chronic. When it's chronic, it can suppress ovulation. It can also

 Lower progesterone levels. So that's one of the

[00:14:00] reasons why somebody can have lowered progesterone is from high stress. And progesterone is really important. It's important for fertility, obviously, but it's really, really important for pregnancy.

So to, in order to sustain a pregnancy, you need good, healthy amounts of progesterone.

So, I wanted to mention a couple of really interesting studies and one of them was the study on Tibetan monks and what they did was they actually looked at the gut microbiome of those Tibetan monks and also neighbors and so basically what they found was that, um,

the microbiome of the meditators and the microbiome of the neighbors. And they both ate similar foods. They were exposed to the same water. They lived in the same area. The only difference really was that the meditators meditated all day. And what they found was that the gut microbiome and the meditators was a lot more enriched and a lot more

[00:15:00] diverse than the ones of the neighbors.

And that's pretty fascinating because What that shows you is that there are types of microbiome and what it looked like for the meditators is associated with a lot less risk of inflammation and risk of heart disease and lots of different. autoimmune conditions. So it protected them basically by having that enriched gut microbiome.

It protected their bodies, but it also shows us that their meditations have something to do with the gut microbiome.

Something else that I want to note Is if you've been listening to me, you probably are sick of hearing me talk about Dr. Joe Dispenza, because I absolutely have been so influenced by his work. And when I went to his retreat, 

they basically studied the participants blood and their gut microbiome is one of the things that they study in brain waves and amongst many other things. And what they

[00:16:00] found was that when they take the stool samples of the participants from the beginning before they actually start the week long meditation retreat, they check their stools before and then they check it afterwards and they find that it's drastically different and it has way more diversity in their microbiome and it's associated with much better health.

Okay. And so that's pretty fascinating. And that's something that I directly had experience to watching. So it seems like basically that through meditation and through mindfulness practices Or any kind of practices that lower stress that that can impact the gut microbiome, which is fascinating because then it gives us a lot of power.

It gives us a feeling of empowerment that you really can make a difference in your gut just through your mind alone.

Another really fascinating study that I found was that they

[00:17:00] had correlations between certain types of mental disorders and some of them were even mild depression or mild anxiety all the way leading to bipolar and other types that were more severe.

And what they found was that there was an interesting pattern of the microbiome and it was a similar type of microbiome pattern where it showed some microbiome dysbiosis that related to the mental condition. that the person had. So depending on what it was, there seemed to be a pattern in their gut microbiome, which is another incredibly fascinating thing.

And something that I also heard about was fecal implants, I don't necessarily suggest it. I think it's still an experimental phase, something that you might want to ask your doctor about if you really have gone through a lot, but. Definitely do your

[00:18:00] research because I know that it's not something that I think that it's not something without any risks at all.

But what they found, which was fascinating about this, is that when they did the fecal transplant, the person would basically take a transplant of poop, it's kind of gross, from somebody who has a really good enriched microbiome. And they basically transplanted that poop from that person to the other person, who'd take the poop and put it back.

into the person who had dysbiosis or issues with their gut. And what they found was that it influenced their gut health because what happened was that microbiome would start to populate and grow in numbers for the person that needed it. And they found that not only did it help in many cases with gut conditions, but it also helped with mental conditions.

Um, it helped with ADHD and many other types of

mental diagnoses. So it was [00:19:00] really, really, really fascinating that that can really make such a difference, but it can.

So it is kind of cool to know this because then you realize that yes, I can approach this through the gut itself. Which a lot of people do, but many times people get so focused sort of on like the physical body that they ignore the mental body. And I find that I meet a lot of people, whether it's my clients or in person or online.

where they have spoken to functional doctors, they know pretty much what supplements to take, what to eat, and they figured it all out and almost to a point where it caused them a lot of mental stress. But the focus was so much just on the physical that the mental was ignored.

And it is something that is easy to ignore because. It's something that we don't really see, we can't touch, it's something that kind of operates behind the

[00:20:00] scenes, and most of the time, our eyes, when they're open, are focused on the world around us, so it's easier for us to focus on that. and not close our eyes and go within, which is what a lot of these mindfulness practices teach us.

And this is actually something that I cover a lot in my book, the way of fertility, because I thought it was so important. What I found just really in working in this field is that That is the most ignored aspect of our being and it's because it can be actually really frustrating to deal with. It's frustrating to do something and work with something and focus on something that we can't really hold and it's not as tangible.

And it feels like we have less control, but ultimately by doing so and allowing ourselves to experience that feeling, the feelings that come up with it, that's when we actually do start to feel

[00:21:00] more of a sense of control. So it's kind of like a little

paradox in its own experience. but I do highly recommend looking into it. But I'm going to talk about not just the mindfulness aspect, but I'm also going to talk about really tangible ways that you can impact your nervous system. And of course I'm going to mention acupuncture. And that is something that I do.

And acupuncture, is incredibly beneficial on regulating the nervous system. It works on your circuits, basically. I mean, to really say it in the most simplest way, obviously, acupuncture is a lot more complex than just calling it circuits, but it's really beneficial. To say circuits, it makes it easier for the mind to really envision.

Do you basically have circuits in your body and that circuits and the pulses that the circuits bring, which is really the channels inside your body. When you're stimulating that with acupuncture, it can really help regulate

[00:22:00] the nervous system and basically restart that. And so what that does is over time and not in the beginning, sometimes in the beginning you could feel more tired, but over time it'll increase your energy.

But also will help you feel calm at the same time. So I call it calm alert. And I love that combination when you're calm and you're alert, which is the opposite of like having a lot of coffee to try to like force yourself to have energy and then you're jittery. So no, no jitters, you're super alert, but you're also calm.

It's like the perfect combination.

So acupuncture can really support that in many different ways, not just by regulating your own patterns, but also by stimulating the channels and also by doing auricular therapy, which is really addressing the points on the ears. The ears are one area that make the vagus nerve accessible. The vagus nerve, which is that go between your brain and your gut is really, really important.

, when it gets stimulated, it

[00:23:00] actually stimulates the rest and digest part of your nervous system. So that could be really, really impactful on your gut health. And so one of the ways that you could do this, so acupuncture is one of the ways, but one of the ways that you could do this at home is simply by massaging your ears every single day.

You could do this at night and you could do this in the shower. Or you could do this whenever you remember to do it. But massaging your ears can almost immediately have an impact on the nervous system. So it not almost immediately. It actually does have that. So that's something that you might want to do.

And while you're doing that, You can also do some deep breathing. So working that diaphragm. So diaphragmatic breathing where we're breathing from the belly, that's ultimately the best way to breathe. We are trained over time and conditioned to breathe through the ribs and.

while

[00:24:00] the ribs are part of how we breathe, the most effective way to breathe is through the diaphragm. So you can practice this by putting your hand on your belly and feeling your belly go in and out and train yourself to do that. Get back into that. And you can actually train yourself to do that. I used to not do that.

And I, Now I train myself to do that. That is just the way I breathe. It's not going to give you a huge belly. You know, people are so afraid of that, that they start to breathe the wrong way. And ultimately it helps oxygenate your body much better, but then also when you're doing some breathing exercises, it can also calm the vagus nerve.

One of the ways to do this is by inhaling to four counts, holding your breath and then exhaling to eight counts. So when you exhale longer than you inhale, you get yourself into a more rest and digest mode.

[00:25:00] If you have issues sleeping at night, this is a great exercise to do and you could literally combine that with massaging your ears and also slowing down your breath and holding it on the inhale and holding it a little bit on the exhale.

So controlling that breath. And then filling up the lungs all the way and then exhaling all the air out.

Another thing that you can do is hum. So humming that vibration sound from your throat can actually impact and stimulate the vagus nerve. So that's another way to stimulate the vagus nerve.

And generally speaking, things like yoga, qigong, and movement that becomes more conscious can also regulate your nervous system.

And you can also, as you're laying down, if you have any issues falling asleep, you can also do something called Yoga Nidra. You can find many different ones on YouTube

[00:26:00] where they guide you through focusing on the different parts of your body. But becoming aware of your body sensations is another way to really make that strong connection between your brain and your awareness and your body.

So that is really what I have for the mind. But then when it comes to your gut, you could do a lot of things too, to support your mind and to support your gut. And so my number one rule for this, number one, is chew your food. Chew your food so that it becomes complete mush. And I remember hearing, when I was studying Ayurveda, I remember hearing my teacher shared this quote, and I was like, oh my god, this It's true.

And he said, drink your food and eat your drink. So I'm like, okay, you know, it's kind of weird to hear the first time you hear about it, but drink your food, meaning you choose so well that you basically have a smoothie

[00:27:00] in your mouth, ready to like swallow like a drink. And then also taking your time with it.

The drinks and the soups and kind of giving yourself a little more time in your mouth because what happens is Your saliva has these amazing enzymes that help break down your food Once it enters your gut so that is the first process and probably the most important because you want to start that foundation of digestion right and that foundation starts with mastication which is chewing and combining that with with your saliva.

So not only liquefying it, but also liquefying it with liquid gold, which is digestive enzymes that you're able to really get into the food so that the food is able to process and the digestive system doesn't have as hard of a time doing what it does because the digestive system process is actually very energy

[00:28:00]consuming and that is one of the reasons why we need to rest and digest.

We get more tired after we eat because our bodies need energy in order to digest. So when you're doing that, you're actually making it easier and creating a much more efficient digestive process.

Secondly, if you're going to have proteins, Combine them with vegetables or some fibers so that you're able to process it and really chew it. But also the biggest, most difficult to digest meals should be eaten when the sun is strongest outside. What that does is that our bodies respond very much to the environment and it will respond to that digestive fire.

So having that sun very strong will impact our Agni, which is the digestive fire, and that will impact how we're able to process food. And I also suggest eating less at night. As the sun goes down, your

[00:29:00] digestive system also starts to sleep. So it's important during that time to go easy. And you can have soups, steamed vegetables, really, really light meals at night.

and then allow your stomach and your digestive system a little fasting time in the evening before you go to sleep. Your sleep is going to be a lot better because again, all that energy that usually goes into digestion can go into repair, into balancing hormones, into replenishing your body as you sleep.

Plus your sleep will be deeper and better if you, don't have too much in your stomach.

I also highly suggest getting on a good probiotic. And the one I like, and again, it really depends on your gut condition because you might need different protocols, but the company I like is microbiome labs and they do gut testing. They also do,

[00:30:00] they have lots of different supplements. Megasporbiotic is the most common one 

for people with really complex digestive issues, they might benefit from going with something a little more gentle than Megasporbiotic and doing like a one strain in the beginning so their body gets used to it. But I highly recommend their products because they are really, really top notch.

And lastly, you could do this while you shower, you could do this after your shower, massaging your belly is one of the most impactful things, not just for your gut, but it can also impact your uterus and get more blood flow to that area. So really just massaging in clockwise circles.

So as you're looking at your belly, circle around your belly button and you can do a wide circle until you get closer to the belly button and then go wide again and then go back and forth like that. Then you can go

[00:31:00] from the top of the rib cage down to the belly button and then from your pubic bone up and from the sides towards the center of your belly button and diagonal.

And really you are intuitive and your hands are intuitive. So your hands will figure out how it feels good to massage your belly. So you can press in certain points that feel like it needs more movement or if it feels stagnant and you'll get to feel what you need because that's ultimately what happens when we start to connect with our bodies.

And lastly, just a really good habit to get into is mindful eating, becoming aware of what you're eating and not doing other things like watching TV or being on your phone, just sitting and looking at your food because you do start salivating when you look at your food. Looking at your food is also the beginning of digestion.

So becoming mindful with your food, also tasting your food, chewing your food, and

[00:32:00] becoming aware of how certain foods make you feel and really connecting with that because that will connect you to intuitive eating, where you intuitively know what is good for you and what is not good for you. So that concludes today's episode, and I hope you enjoy this. To me, this is a really fascinating topic, and it's something that I think a lot of people should really give

attention to, because the mind and the gut are really both important things in life. when it comes to your fertility health. And it also will help the process so that you don't feel as stressed and you feel more ready and equipped to get through this. because we know the fertility journey is challenging as it is.

So I hope you feel more empowered with this message. And if you guys feel connected to

the content that I am sharing, please subscribe. And I would be so grateful

[00:33:00] for a review. Thank you so much for listening in and I hope you have a beautiful day.

EP 323 From Nike to Nutrition: A Fertility Journey | Ronit Menashe & Vida Delrahim

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Vida Delrahim and Ronit Menashe share their personal journeys from corporate careers to founding WeNatal, a company focused on improving fertility through better prenatal supplements. They discuss the importance of addressing both male and female health in the preconception phase, the science behind their product formulations, and the need for education and resources for couples trying to conceive. Their mission is to empower individuals with knowledge and high-quality supplements to enhance fertility outcomes.

Takeaways

• Ronit and Vida met at Nike and became best friends.

• Ronit's experience in functional medicine changed their trajectory.

• Miscarriages led them to explore fertility solutions more deeply.

• Men contribute to 50% of miscarriages due to sperm quality.

• WeNatal was created to support both partners in fertility.

• Their prenatal supplements are designed for bioavailability and effectiveness.

• They focus on simplifying the supplement process for women.

• Education is key in supporting couples on their fertility journey.

• Their blog offers valuable resources for those trying to conceive.

• They emphasize the importance of quality ingredients in supplements.

Guest Bio:

Ronit Menashe and Vida Delrahim are the founders of WeNatal, a prenatal supplement company that is transforming the fertility space with the first prenatal supplement optimized for her AND him. WeNatal’s mission to change the narrative surrounding fertility and reproductive health is personal; after suffering miscarriages a week apart, Ronit and Vida were given little direction on what to do differently. More importantly, the health of Ronit and Vida’s partners(including the health of their sperm) was completely missing from their fertility dialogue with their doctors… something had to change. That is why WeNatal was born, to shift the fertility journey from "me" to "we.” WeNatal is revolutionizing the prenatal space and backed by industry leading Functional Medicine doctors, nutritionists, and fertility experts, including Dr. Mark Hyman and Kelly LeVeque. With 24 key clean, bioavailable nutrients, WeNatal steps up where other supplements fall short for all things preconception to postpartum for both parents and baby.

Websites/Links: 

Free Preconception Guide:  WeNatal.com/guide  

https://www.instagram.com/we_natal/?hl=en

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast for Neat and Vita.

Vida Delrahim (00:02)

Thanks for having us. We're so excited to be here.

Ronit Menashe (00:04)

So happy to be here.

Michelle (00:06)

Yes, so happy to have you guys. And I know that you guys have such an interesting story, first of all, on how you met and also the experience you guys went through together. So without giving anything away, I would love for you guys to share your stories, your personal stories and how that eventually led you to doing your passion project.

Vida Delrahim (00:26)

Yeah, I'd love to. So it's fun story because we never envisioned to be in the supplement space. And in fact, Ronit and I met in our corporate careers at Nike close to 18 years ago and became best friends and really just kind of embarked in life together. Ronit went on to work in the functional medicine space and we should all thank our lucky stars that she did because it kind of completely changed our trajectory. So.

I had a miscarriage right when she was having her first daughter. And of course the answers we were given were very dismissive. They were typically like very common, keep trying, you're lucky you even got pregnant, could be the stress, could be a slew of things. They just kind of shove you along as part of the process. And I didn't know any better, of course, having my first and Ronit was actually in the functional med space, immersed and kind of taught me things like, have you checked your thyroid? Have you done this? Have you done that?

Lo and behold, I had Hashimoto's, I didn't even know about it. Just that simple act of fixing my thyroid with medication and visiting an endocrinologist allowed me to have a healthy baby girl. And then fast forward to 2020, I had another miscarriage. And a week after, Ronit had one. And I think this was, it happened a week apart. This was a little bit shocking because...

Like I kind of just accepted that this stuff happens, but Ronit working alongside Dr. Mark Hyman, who's very amazing functional practitioner, she was all about the root cause. She was all about the answers and the questions and the answers she was given was very similar, but she wasn't willing to accept that. Like, you know, there's nothing you can do as an answer.

Michelle (02:02)

Mm-hmm.

Ronit Menashe (02:03)

And I think for me, Michelle, the reason why it was so shocking was because I was a huge fan of functional medicine for so many years and I already was doing all of the things, or at least I thought I was. I had already cleaned out my house from plastics. I had already, you know, was eating organic food. I was focusing on movement. I was taking pretty good supplements.

or at least what I thought was good supplements. And I was shocked. And when I started to dive into the root of what was happening, because it didn't make sense to me that my doctor said, there is nothing you could do to improve your fertility, literally. It is just common, just keep trying. I thought that makes zero sense. And I'm gonna learn about how to improve my egg quality. I thought.

Michelle (02:48)

Mm hmm.

Ronit Menashe (03:01)

It was a net quality issue. was 41 at the time. That's what made sense to me. And my biggest aha was when I learned that 50 % of miscarriages happen because of sperm quality. And that was when I called Vida and I said, Vida, did you know that men contribute to 50 % of miscarriages and that 50 that

that sperm quality is easily improved using antioxidants like CoQ10 and AC. In fact, studies after studies show that when men take an antioxidant blend in high dose bioavailable forms, they can quadruple their chances of their partner getting pregnant and having a live birth. So,

That was our big light bulb moment when we thought like, my God, we need to create a prenatal for men. And we need to scream this from the rooftops that men have a huge role, huge role in improving fertility outcomes and pregnancy outcomes for their families. And that was where we started our journey.

Michelle (04:13)

It is so important. can't even like tell you. It's so crazy because I have people that go to their doctors and so many times they don't even check the men. And also the DNA fragmentation, which is a whole other thing. Cause like, yeah, you can have perfect sperm numbers and motility and morphology. But if the DNA is off and that can get really impacted by the antioxidants,

then that can make a big difference on so many things on IVF, is so expensive too. So I love that you guys bring this up. It's so important.

Vida Delrahim (04:50)

It's so important and how is it that we're so far in like medicine and women's rights, but like yet the burden of fertility still solely is falling so Ronit and I knew that was like the beginning of our mission that one, women and men deserve better products because we can talk about how

once we uncover the fertility and the supplement space, we learn so much, but also that they both need to be leveling up their health. They both need to be part of the conversation. And WeNatal was really born to really level up both partners and bring them together during this journey and give them the best tools and the best nutrition to level up their health in this crucial timeframe, which is preconception.

Michelle (05:32)

For sure, and we're neat. So you had a different background and you changed your career like me.

Ronit Menashe (05:38)

Well, my background was in marketing. That's where Vida and I met at Nike. And I fell in love with functional medicine when I got into CrossFit and I learned about the Paleo diet. And then I learned about functional medicine. And then I started to do, you know, become, I became a functional medicine patient myself. And this was a year before, you know,

we need years before we natal. And I just fell in love with this idea of medicine of the root cause. And once you learn it, you can't unlearn it. Like that's how you think about everything. It's like, even when, you know, your child has a tantrum nowadays, you're like, okay, like it's not them. Is it there? Is it that they're tired? Is it that they're hungry? Is it that they had sugar? You know, you, you

Michelle (06:27)

you

Bye.

Ronit Menashe (06:35)

learn about root cause medicine, you realize it, you know, that just everything is connected. And so for me, that was, you know, a big change in my career because I was focused more on marketing. And then I wanted to get into the functional medicine space. I took Chris Kresser's adapt course and, know, kind of started to learn about becoming a practitioner, but

it ended up serving me very well when I met Dr. Mark Hyman and I worked on his private practice and worked on his private practice more from like operations. And then I worked with him on his book launches. So still kind of like in the business side of things, marketing side of things, but more focused on this space that I love so much, which is functional integrative medicine.

Michelle (07:26)

That's amazing. so I'm sure with that background, and also realizing that there is a need for this. It really inspired you to do, to have this supplement company.

Ronit Menashe (07:38)

100%. We spoke to Dr. Hyman when we first came up with the idea and he said, I always treat the man when a woman comes to me with infertility. And so what we wanted to do with WeNatal is be able to give everybody access to this kind of functional medicine approach, which essentially means optimizing male fertility and female fertility before trying to conceive.

what it looks like is nourishing your body and kind of, creating that optimal soil for conception. And, know, we always say when you improve your health, you're improving your fertility. And when you're improving your fertility, you're improving your health. And we hear from so many customers that, you know, let's say men, for instance, they're taking we natal for him. And all of a sudden they have a libido all of a sudden.

They have energy, they focus, their hair is growing. So that's kind of the side effects and the byproduct of working on improving your sperm and egg quality is you actually also feel good when you're nourished. You feel good when you're depleted from nutrients. Of course, you're going to be tired. And so many people just accept

this notion of like, I'm getting older so I should be tired or I'm getting older I should be losing my hair or I'm postpartum I should be

Michelle (09:06)

Like it's normal,

normal versus common.

Vida Delrahim (09:08)

Exactly.

Exactly.

Ronit Menashe (09:09)

Exactly. Exactly. So

yes, these things are common, but they're not normal. And Vida and I just, you know, had this like life circumstance where we realized like it's our mission now to educate people on the importance of preconception, that there is so much you could do as a couple. He needs to be part of the equation. And when we started WeNatal, we didn't know if the men would be into it, but we're happy to say

Our we-natal men are amazing. We have so many incredible couples that are doing this together from day one. And we're always saying like, they're gonna be the best dads. If they are participating in fertility so early, they are amazing parents already.

Michelle (09:56)

So yeah, for sure. And talk about like the different ingredients or the and what they do when it comes to both egg and sperm quality. And you can take your time on this

Ronit Menashe (10:08)

for sure. Well, you know, here's the thing. We didn't think that the world needed another prenatal for women because there are so many prenatals out there, thousands. know, and. But when we started to dive into it and particularly for us, we were taking these packets made out of plastic that had seven pills in them.

And we just thought women deserve better. Why do they need to take seven pills? Why do they need to throw out plastic every day? Like we care about creating these healthy little humans. What about the environment? there was that. Then when we looked at the lower level prenatals, we noticed that a lot of the ingredients were not bioavailable. So what does that mean?

not everybody could utilize the nutrients that are part of those prenatals. So let's use folic acid as an example. When a prenatal has folic acid, that is the synthetic form of folate, which a lot of prenatals on the market, like if you go to a CVS or a Target, they have folic acid. And if somebody has the MTHFR genetic mutation,

They cannot utilize that folic acid. And so that nutrient is actually harmful to them. So for we natal, all of our nutrients are bioavailable. They're all in the methylated B form. like methyl folate or 5MTHF. So first of all, we have bioavailability. Second of all, comprehensiveness.

A lot of the prenatals on the market have 12-ish ingredients. We have 24 nutrients and we wouldn't leave one nutrient out. And it's very important because each and every one of our nutrients that are in our prenatal serves a very specific purpose for mom and baby and health of the pregnancy. And then you have...

dosages because even if something has 24 key ingredients like we natal the Dosages make a big difference. So using choline as an example choline We natal has 400 milligrams choline is crucial for baby brain development and the research shows that a pregnant woman needs 450 milligrams and a lactating woman needs 550 milligrams the average

Choline intake in the American diet, which you get choline from egg yolks is around 180. So we natal has 400 to be able to support that postpartum mom and obviously the pregnant mom, but there are prenatals on the market that have 50 milligrams. Now this is crucial for cognition of baby, brain mass, baby brain development.

Michelle (13:15)

Mm-hmm.

Ronit Menashe (13:22)

And so we were like, we have to create a prenatal for us because what we were doing is we were taking that base prenatal. We were adding choline. We were adding vitamin D. We were adding folate. We were adding iron. And most women are not going to do that. Most women are not going to, you know, take 10 plus pills a day and spend all that money on

all of these nutrients. We were doing it because we were immersed in the research and we saw how important these nutrients were. But we wanted to create a product that made it simple and easy for women and men to take their prenatal. Our packaging is beautiful and the reason is, well, first of all, we love nice things, but also,

Michelle (14:15)

Thank

Ronit Menashe (14:16)

We

wanted it to be part of people's home, people's life. So they're not hiding their prenatals in their, you know, cabinets that they can take it every day because consistency, like everything in health and wellness, consistency is what's going to make the biggest difference. And so that's kind of from a high level. And then, you know, you asked me what's in the prenatal and we can geek out a little bit more on the nutrients and what they do.

But what's not in the prenatal is also a big, big key because a lot of supplements on the market have a ton of additional ingredients and those ingredients are harmful for fertility and just overall health. And so it's important. We always say it's important to look at the nutrition facts.

but also look underneath the nutrition facts like what else is in there that shouldn't be in there and we natal doesn't have any additional fillers. And we do that because we manufacture in smaller dosages. We're not manufacturing in mass. Our shelf life is only two years where it's not like some prenatals that their shelf life is forever.

which, you know, for us, we're fine. We're doing things in smaller batches. And, you know, from a business perspective, it complicates things, definitely complicates Vida's life because she's on the operation side of things, but we're doing the right thing for the consumer. And that's what matters to us the most.

Michelle (15:43)

.

So I know that like for my patients, for example, I'll give them certain supplements, preparing, including a prenatal, but then I'll also add more supplements that I don't necessarily have them continue taking after they're pregnant. So some that are more like to beef up the quality of the eggs. Do you guys have different ones or is it like certain? Yeah.

Vida Delrahim (16:13)

Mm-hmm.

Ronit Menashe (16:16)

Yes.

Yes. So we have our foundation support, which is the prenatal for him and for her. That is the multivitamin for men slash sperm support. And for women, it's the prenatal that has key nutrients for before, during, and after. But for those who want to beef up their egg quality, and we could talk about the scenarios in which you would need this product or not.

Michelle (16:35)

Mm-hmm.

Ronit Menashe (16:44)

We have a product that we launched this year called Egg Quality Plus, and it's five nutrients in one. So it's the five nutrients that we were taking after our miscarriage, CoQ10, NAC, PQQ, alpha lipoic acid, and L-carnitine. And what these nutrients do is they help improve egg quality. How do they do it?

Michelle (16:49)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ronit Menashe (17:12)

These nutrients are very specific nutrients that help improve mitochondria. We know that the three months before you ovulate, the egg that you ovulate with is going through all these processes that are very complex that require very strong mitochondria. So your mitochondria is like the battery of the cell. And if the battery is low,

that process is not gonna go well and you're gonna end up with chromosomal abnormalities. So it's important to quote unquote charge the battery before you start trying so that when that process does take place, it happens with no or limited errors, if that makes sense. So we recommend for women who are either older or maybe had recurrent miscarriages or

Michelle (18:00)

Yeah.

Ronit Menashe (18:09)

Just wanna know that they did everything possible in the preconception timeframe to take Egg Quality Plus with our prenatal, which the prenatal also includes nutrients that help improve egg quality like folate, vitamin D. By the way, 4,000 I use a vitamin D. I don't think any prenatals on the market have that. And then, you you talked about in the postpartum phase, like for us,

what was very important to include in our prenatal is iron because in the postpartum phase and in third trimester, a lot of women are very depleted from nutrients because you require more iron in that timeframe and just to help with postpartum recovery and all of those things. So our prenatal has iron in it as well.

So what we wanted to do with the prenatal is be able to simplify people's lives and give them a tool that they can use before, during, and after. Then if somebody wants that extra boost, they could get that Egg Quality Plus B4. And that's kind of the philosophy. We wanna make it simple and easy. And the other thing that I didn't mention is our prenatal dosage is three pills a day. And so...

Michelle (19:13)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm

Ronit Menashe (19:31)

We just don't think it's realistic to ask women to take eight pills plus per day for their prenatal, especially in their first trimester when they're nauseous and they're throwing up and they can barely stomach any food.

Michelle (19:41)

Yep. yeah, for sure.

And then as far as the iron, I know there's many different forms of iron and some can cause constipation. So I just wanted to ask about that.

Ronit Menashe (19:53)

Yeah, so the forms, we didn't get into the like real geekiness of our forms, but every single one of our forms are the best form that we can find. And we use a patented iron that doesn't constipate called ferrochell. And we do the same with some of our other ingredients, like our choline is microencapsulated. Every, our selenium is this like super special selenium.

Every single one of our nutrients is sourced from the best of the best because we feel like women deserve the best. This is such an important time in people's lives and the nutrients really make a big difference and can make or break your journey.

Michelle (20:43)

I love that. I love that you're really putting attention to detail because it does make such a difference. And the thing is the thing, the reason why I'm asking also is just from my perspective as a practitioner, I'm always looking for supplements that can address so many issues. And what I find myself doing is getting a bunch of different things and then having to give so many different supplements and so many different bottles. So I love the fact that you guys have

this really like thought out. It's really nice.

Vida Delrahim (21:16)

Well, that's essentially what

Ronit was doing with me when we were on this journey together. She was AKA my doctor. And she's like, look at all the research shows that you need add iron you add this and so it ended up being I don't know Roni at some point I swear it was like 1215 maybe capsules because of all the additions some of it was drops. I could not keep up Ronit was a champion at taking supplements she could like down 10 at a time. I was nursing a couple meal

Michelle (21:41)

Yeah.

Vida Delrahim (21:43)

And of course

I wouldn't even comply. And so that was when also the idea of we need to like the ease and simplicity is so important. We're all busy, but we want to know that we're giving our body the best nutrients. I had guilt about not taking enough because I literally just couldn't down pills as quickly as some people can. And so the fact that we're able to get these 24 quality bioavailable ingredients into three capsules took us years. And we're so proud of that because it is the nutrient density of six to eight capsules in three.

And so that's what we were doing. We realized it wasn't feasible for everybody. Not everyone is at a road who can just chug them along. We realized this world had to be reinvented.

Michelle (22:23)

yeah, for sure. Well, this is great. mean, lots of great information. I'm looking at your website right now, actually. Yeah, you guys definitely, it looks like you guys did a lot of research and you also have a blog, which is great. Cause I think it's so important to educate people that are on this journey.

Ronit Menashe (22:44)

Well, that is exactly what we didn't have. It's so hard to reliable information that you can trust. And so we have an amazing blog and we put out so much great content on literally any topic under the sun from what to do if you just got diagnosed with gestational diabetes to, okay, how do you create a clean nursery to you know how to you know the fertility crisis you know we span everything on the blog and we share about it in our newsletter and we have an amazing guide with nine preconception tips if your listeners want to go to we natal.com slash guide they get our free couples guide and it's a really great starting point and a lot of the things that couples could do to support their fertility is free it doesn't have to be like

complicated or fancy. It's a lot of like free things. And so that guide is a really great resource.

Michelle (23:50)

Awesome. Well, this is great information and you guys, this isn't a sponsored episode. It really is me wanting to find out more because there are amazing new things out there. And I think that it's important to hear all the different perspectives and really get it from the founders. So thank you guys so much for coming on and for people who are looking to learn more, how can they find you guys?

Ronit Menashe (24:19)

They on we natal.com our website on social. We're very active and that's where we also share a lot of the new research at we underscore natal. And also we're happy to hear from your listeners. Anybody has questions or needs help or needs us to point them in the direction of some something or some article they can DM us at our, on our Instagram where we're most active.

Michelle (24:49)

Awesome. Well, I loved this conversation and I loved all the details and the nerdy aspects of it because for me, I really liked the breakdown. think one thing that I find is that you want to find the smartest audience. It's usually a fertility audience. They're so smart because they do so much research on their own health and they really look into much more than the doctors give them. so,

So I know that they like to find out really detailed information. So thank you for that. And thank you so much for coming on today.

Vida Delrahim (25:26)

Thanks for having us. We're excited to support you and your community.

Michelle (25:31)

Awesome.

Ronit Menashe (25:31)

Thanks, Michelle.

EP 322 Why Positive Thinking Can be a Trap When It Comes to Fertility

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive into the nuances of positive thinking and why it can sometimes be counterproductive during the fertility journey. While positive thinking is often praised, it can sometimes invalidate our true feelings, create shame, and hinder emotional flow. I share insights from both personal experiences and the principles of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), emphasizing the importance of emotional authenticity and achieving a state of neutrality to support fertility and overall well-being.

Takeaways:

• Toxic positivity can be harmful. It may invalidate genuine emotions and create shame or pressure to feel a certain way.

• Neutrality is key. Balancing yin and yang allows for emotional flow and supports both mental and physical well-being.

• Emotions are energy. Observing and processing emotions without judgment promotes natural healing and balance.

• Practical tools: Meditation, mindfulness, journaling, and therapies like acupuncture can help create flow and harmony.

• Limit external pressures. Set boundaries and curate your environment to avoid triggers, allowing for peace and authenticity.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle’s book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Today I am going to be talking about why positive thinking isn't always so positive, especially when it comes to the fertility journey and why it could sometimes be a trap. So stay tuned.

So today I want to discuss the hidden pitfalls of positive thinking when it comes to your fertility journey and why it is not always as positive as we intend for it to be.

So there's a good reason why positive thinking or the movement of positive thinking has made such a huge impact on a lot of people. And you'll hear a lot about it. When it comes to so many different things when it comes to work when it comes to your body when it comes to like so many things and The reason why I think it is so impactful is the aspect of it of really guiding our minds [00:01:00] to the possibilities of things happening and There's definitely benefits to that However, it could be a trap.

It could be a trap to think positively and I'll explain why, especially when it comes to the fertility journey. Sometimes it can actually make things worse.

So, you may have heard of the term or the phrase, Toxic positivity. So yes, anything can become and turn into something unhealthy, even positivity.

You may have been in a situation where you were trying to explain how you were feeling to somebody you really care about, and you just needed to get A load of emotions off your chest. And as soon as you do that, the person says, well, you know, maybe it's this, maybe it's that, or trying to sort of shift the way you're looking at things.

And then you find yourself feeling worse.

The likelihood of why you were feeling [00:02:00] so bad is because in so doing in, you know, the good intention of your friend or your family member to try to get you to just stay positive or, another example is going to a dinner party and being told, Oh, you know, people sometimes at the last minute when they start to feel relaxed, that's when they start to get pregnant. So you get stories like that over and over again, but the reason why it could be so detrimental and it can actually have an impact that's the opposite is because you start to feel invalidated for your feelings and you're not feeling like whatever it is that you're experiencing is valid and you shouldn't feel that way.

And there's almost an element that sometimes can turn into a level of shame you. In feeling that you can't just feel how you're feeling without, I guess, a positive judgment. So positivity, just like [00:03:00]negativity, it could be a judgment on something.

And it can also get you into a state where you don't really feel authentic. You're feeling like you have to be a certain way and that doesn't come from where you're truly feeling. It doesn't really align with how your current state is. So when you're constantly going against yourself, then it can cause you to feel worse.

So ultimately the reason why you would even implement anything as positive thinking is to feel better.

So when you're trying to implement something that you don't really feel aligned with, then it can add an extra added pressure to your already pressure filled journey trying to conceive. So then on top of all of that, you feel shame or bad or guilt for feeling negative emotions. And these negative emotions are actually very normal emotions to have.

And sometimes you start to beat yourself up because you think to [00:04:00] yourself, well, is it because I wasn't being positive that I'm not conceiving? Am I not being positive enough to make my fertility work? And then it gets you onto this whole other rabbit hole of thoughts and ideas that again, only make you feel worse.

So let's just look into why those things make you feel worse. It's because you are feeling your truth of emotions and regardless of it feeling, I guess, negative, but again, that's a judgment. By denying that, by saying, by putting that judgment of this is a negative feeling and I have to feel much better, then there's pressure and there's also resistance that's being created.

In regards to what is for you in this present moment. So rather than putting judgments on anything that you're going through emotionally, and rather than looking at emotions as inherently good or bad, allow them just to be what they[00:05:00] are. And this is one of the things that is so powerful about a mindfulness practice is that we're not trying to suppress anything.

You're just allowing things to be. And so emotions can be like energy. And this is one of the reasons why Chinese medicine, the way we focus on the body and the thing that actually heals the body. Is creating a sense of flow. So when you're taking something and you're either constricting and you're not really aligning, you're resisting or you're attaching too much, then you're not allowing a state of flow and you're not allowing this state of yin and yang balance.

So suppressing or denying emotions positivity can actually create an emotional backlog and it can lead to increased stress and even physical symptoms. that the fertility journey can often come with grief. It can come with anger. It can come with frustration. It can come with fear.

All these feelings deserve to be acknowledged and processed just like anything in [00:06:00] life. So if those things are suppressed, that is not true positivity. On the other hand, allowing yourself to feel the feelings and go through the motions and allowing them to move as their normal progression is naturally that can allow

a spontaneous feeling of joy from that release of emotions. So there's a difference between trying to force joy and trying to force positivity than to be in a natural spontaneous state of joy. by allowing yourself that space and that freedom of allowing yourself to really just truly freely express yourself.

Now that doesn't mean to express yourself by hurting other people. You know, there's, everything's in a balance. So you use your expression in a way that doesn't really harm other people or doesn't impact other [00:07:00] people other than allowing them to be part of your journey or being there as a support but really processing emotions in a healthy way. Sometimes this means going and seeking therapy from a qualified professional and ideally somebody who really understands your specific needs. So it could be , somebody who specializes in fertility, wellness, so it's important to have somebody who's really trained in that specific

specialty.

And I also want to note that processing emotions is very distinct from staying in those emotions. So there's a difference between allowing emotions to move through because naturally if you really allow emotions to go freely they're gonna come and go and they're not gonna stay stagnant. When you find yourself almost persisting in those states of emotions all the time, that too is not a natural state.

[00:08:00] That's actually forcing yourself to stay in it because either we feel shame or we feel we deserve to feel that way or that we don't personally allow ourselves to move through it until we get that object of desire, in the case of fertility, it's conceiving. And what happens is even if you do get conception and conception occurs, you'll realize that through that stagnation of emotions, that once you do get what you desire, those emotions don't necessarily go away.

And that actually takes a lot of people by surprise as well.

Processing emotions definitely requires us to be accepting of our state, accepting of what is in this moment, accepting how we feel in this moment, and really truly like giving ourselves that self compassion and that full acceptance of us. in our state, how we are in this moment, and when we do so, we're allowing the process to happen and unfold as it needs to naturally.

But it is [00:09:00] important to either get proper support if need be, depending on how extreme those emotions are and depending on if we don't feel like we can get through it by ourselves. And it's very important not to have shame around that and to be able to ask for help when we need it.

So taking this to ancient Chinese philosophy and really the Tao, which is what Chinese medicine is based on. If you haven't heard the earlier podcasts that I've had where I talk about the Dow and I talk about how it really translates as the way and allows life to flow best in the state of balance and not extremes.

So those are things that are really important. So being too positive is actually considered an extreme. Having something where it's not natural for us and we're kind of forcing a smile is considered an extreme. It's not considered a state of balance If you look at it from a [00:10:00] Chinese medicine perspective and ultimately it's really realizing that there is no good or bad when it comes to emotions and there is no good or bad when it comes to states. The best possible harmonious state that you can be in is allowing both the yin and the yang, which are complete opposing forces to harmonize and work to balance each other together in complementaries.

And really understanding that yin represents stillness, receptivity, coolness, it's more inert, and yang represents . activity, action and heat. And so many times through the fertility journey, we can be very proactive. We want to do a lot and sometimes we're feeling the feelings that we have. We can go into a yin state and allow ourselves to process that and to be in stillness and to be giving ourselves that space to process whatever it is [00:11:00] that we need to go through, knowing that this harmony, there is no good and bad, and that really ultimately it's about listening to our hearts and allowing what is in its full entirety with no judgment.

So you may be asking, where do I go from now? I don't want to feel horrible. I don't want to feel like this difficulty. And I want to think positively because thinking positive can help. Improve physicality and it can help improve a lot of things. And yes, there is truth to that.

Absolutely. But it's important to keep it in balance. And ultimately what a lot of the ancients say in a lot of ancient traditions is really neutrality is key to flow. So neutrality 

is the ultimate state. of yin and yang balance. So when you have both opposites harmonizing, you create a neutrality and that neutrality, that homeostasis is the key to flow [00:12:00] and that allows the flow of your divine intelligence in your mind and your body. And when I say your mind, those are the things that really connects you with your intuition, where it allows you to have the clarity of mind so that you are able to create consciously.

And yes, absolutely. You can create consciously in your life. However, if you're creating from a state of stress, then that will taint and underlying the intention of where you're coming from in your creation. So yeah, 100 percent we are creators and 100% thinking in a way that is positive can really impact your journey.

So I'm not negating that at all. However, doing so from a place of neutrality so that there's no major attachment and no major resistance to what you don't want or attachment to what you do want. Having a state of neutrality where you're coasting through that, first of [00:13:00] all, is a possibility on the fertility journey.

I work with so many people and it is a possibility in the fertility journey. I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that is not possible for me until I have the baby. And that is a misconception because I've seen the possibility of it and I can guarantee you, you can get to the state of neutrality through that.

And by doing so, you're actually creating more space in your life in doing so. Now that doesn't mean negating how you feel. And part of getting to that state of neutrality is allowing yourself that space to be in your own authenticity, whatever that may look like at the moment.

So I want to make a couple of really key points here is that neutrality, when I talk about neutrality, neutrality is not indifference. So it's not meaning I don't care about anything. I'm just going to be completely numb because that's actually going all [00:14:00] the way to the yin and then trying to be too .

positive could be trying too hard and going all the way to the young. It's actually going in the middle. So neutrality is not being indifferent. Neutrality doesn't mean you're not doing anything. It's creating a state of equilibrium and flow where your emotions can rise and fall without pulling you out of alignment.

And you can imagine it like a river flowing smoothly. So knowing that obstacles come and go, but the water continues to flow in So when it comes to Chinese medicine perspective, flow is bi directional. It impacts the mind and it impacts the body. If you create flow in the body through Chinese medicine, through herbs and acupuncture, And even Qigong or yoga. So this isn't just for acupuncture. You can create flow in the body many different ways.

It will create and reflect as flow in your mind. And if you [00:15:00] create flow in your mind by doing things like meditation and calming your mind, or even chanting or humming, which I guess is also physical, then that will create coherence and flow in your body. So ultimately, when you have flow and coherence in your body and your mind, it will impact your fertility.

And that is how I approach my own treatments towards my patients. And also the course that I do when I work with people online, it's all about creating this flow because when you do get this flow, That is the optimal state for your body to conceive.

So for example, emotions are very much linked to our organs and you may have heard me talk about this before, but like things like worry or thinking too much can actually impact your digestive system and having, , An imbalanced digestive system will actually cause you to worry more. So sometimes[00:16:00] you'll feel certain emotions that are very much linked to the state of your organs.

And anger can disrupt the liver chi or stress can disrupt the liver chi by constricting because the liver is in charge of creating free flow in your body. And so the liver is basically your best friend when it comes to flow, if it is in the right balance.

Similarly, if the liver is not optimal, it is going to feel more disrupted when we have other things going on in our life. So it can cause us to feel more stress. So all of these things are bidirectional and fear , is tied to the kidneys, which are really incredibly important when it comes to reproductive vitality and health.

So one of the best things that I can mention is if you look at emotions as you would energy, basically, where you look at it from an objective perspective, and a sense of neutrality where you're looking at the emotions as energy or even getting into your body state [00:17:00] when you're going through the emotions and saying, where do I feel this?

When you start to look at your body and not think about the ideas and the stories that are connected to the emotions, you'll be able to create a sense of separation because you're observing when you're observing, you can separate.

So a couple of practical steps to creating this neutrality is through your acknowledgement of how you're feeling. And you could do this, like I said, through your body or even through journaling. So you can write down certain things, how it makes you feel, and also talking to a friend or a family member or a therapist, depending on how much you feel you need and what you're able to process alone.

Another technique that can help us really become more neutral is things like meditation, mindfulness, even yoga, , Tai Chi, moving your body, able to really feel and process your emotions somatically through your [00:18:00] body can help. And then meditations really through your mind, but observing of your body.

You can do that, or you can think about your observation of your emotions or your thoughts and watching them, observing them so that you're over time training your mind to separate from that and not get pulled in to those emotions and not get pulled into the ideas or the judgments of them. And you're just able to see it from an objective perspective.

Another thing I am personally biased to is acupuncture and herbal support, and those things can definitely help through the physical body and through certain points to, to, balance the nervous system and also create a sense of peace. So that can help a lot with processing emotions. And that is one of the ways you can actually get extra help if you feel like sometimes those emotions can be very overwhelming.[00:19:00]

Acupuncture helps tremendously in allowing yourself to process those emotions. I have a lot of people release a lot of emotions while they're doing acupuncture and it could be very, very supportive. There's a lot of. herbal formulas that can support your mind. They can support even the sleep, which in during the sleep, you're actually processing a lot as well.

So sleep is really important in processing emotions and processing 

stress as well.

And then also adopting a both and mindset, which gives you permission to feel both hope and frustration, joy and sadness at the same time, allowing yourself to be okay with having opposing emotions for the same exact thing. So then it gives you the space to also feel joy at times and also feel sadness and not giving yourself all or nothing in this whole process.

And I think that doing that takes out [00:20:00] the extra added pressure or the guilt that you feel when you do have moments of joy after grieving a loss, really just allowing yourself the space and the freedom to just be however you want to show up.

And lastly, limit external pressures. If you find that people are adding more pressure or giving you that toxic positivity, then yes, feel free to set those boundaries. Sometimes it can be just not even mentioning specifics, but just really setting the boundaries and creating space between you and certain people that you feel are adding too much pressure to you.

You could also limit external pressures by creating almost a detox of certain social media accounts that tend to bring up feelings of pressure to be extra positive because it seems like those people have that type of life and that ultimately many times is not really what it [00:21:00] seems to be.

It's something that we perceive and make meaning of. So if those things do trigger a lot of those pressures, I definitely suggest limiting that as well.

And also taking walks in nature, sometimes nature reminds us how things can be opposing, but perfectly beautiful in their imperfections. So sometimes just walking and observing and listening to the sounds of the leaves blowing in the trees and feeling the wind on your face and just taking yourself into a moment of presence that will ultimately lead you to some sense of neutrality where you almost forget where you are and you can just be perfectly present.

By doing so, you're giving yourself a little space and a break from everything, the good, the bad, or the judgments of those, and you're allowing yourself to be fully present. And by observing things [00:22:00]around you, you can actually get yourself to that state of neutrality. I highly recommend doing that. It can really impact your consciousness.

And at least at the very least, it can give you a little mental break.

Remember that balance is key. And ultimately, I mean, that is how Chinese medicine works. That's how I get the body to be in a state of healing. And I say state of healing because ultimately it's the body that heals itself. We're just creating a state of neutrality and a state of balance. So that is ultimately what feels the most authentic to us because it's innate.

So I hope that you enjoyed this episode and feel free to reach out to me with any questions or ideas or thoughts for new future episodes on my Instagram. You can DM me there and my handle is at the wholesome lotus fertility. And if you guys enjoy this podcast, then please subscribe.

And it makes me really happy to [00:23:00] get reviews on Apple music. I read all of them. So thank you so much for tuning in today, and I hope you have a beautiful day. 

EP 321 One Woman’s Story of Hope After Nearly Four Years of Unexplained Infertility

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Sarah, a woman I worked with, shares her deeply personal fertility journey that was close to four years. She shares her struggles, the various treatments she explored, and the spiritual practices that helped her find hope and healing. She emphasizes the importance of perseverance, the role of alternative therapies like acupuncture, and the significance of finding the right medical support. Sarah's story is one of resilience, faith, and the power of belief in oneself and a higher purpose.

Takeaways

• Sarah struggled with unexplained infertility for three and a half years before seeking treatment.

• She explored various treatments, including acupuncture and IVF.

• Visualization and spiritual practices played a crucial role in her journey.

• Finding the right medical support made a significant difference.

• Sarah emphasizes the importance of not giving up on the journey.

• She believes in the power of intuition and listening to one's body.

• Connecting with nature helped her find peace and clarity.

• Nutrition and blood flow are essential for fertility.

• Sarah's experience highlights the importance of sharing stories for hope.

• She encourages others to start their journey sooner rather than later.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00) I'm so excited to have you on today, Sarah, to share your story. Thank you so much for being willing to open up and inspire others with your journey. I'd love for you to introduce yourself and share a bit about your experience.

Sarah (00:20) Thanks for inviting me, Michelle. My name is Sarah, and I struggled with unexplained infertility for three and a half years. I had multiple tests and examinations, visited several doctors, and went through all the standard procedures, but no one could pinpoint the issue.

During my research, I discovered that acupuncture could be helpful for infertility, as it promotes relaxation and balance. Along with acupuncture, I learned about the importance of the right supplements. That’s when I found you, Michelle, through your amazing reviews online. I reached out, explained my situation, and shared how I’d been following everything the doctors recommended, eating healthy, but still had no success.

What struck me immediately when I met you was your energy and positivity. You weren’t just an acupuncturist; you were like a life coach, guiding me step by step. During our first visit, you assessed my needs, recommended supplements, and started a treatment plan. After just one session, I felt significantly more relaxed. I also started practicing the visualization techniques you suggested, spending time at the beach, watching the sunrise, and focusing on restoring my energy.

After five treatments, I was able to get pregnant naturally. It was an incredible moment, and I can’t thank you enough for your guidance and support.

Michelle (03:17) I appreciate your kind words, Sarah, but I want to highlight the effort you put into this journey. You took initiative, embraced the practices, and made significant changes—that’s a big deal.

Sarah (03:28) Thank you. It was a challenging road, but your support made all the difference. To give some context, I had tried naturally for three and a half years. Then, I underwent four IUIs, but none were successful. During one of those cycles, I worked with another acupuncturist, but it didn’t help. Eventually, I decided to move on to IVF.

My first IVF attempt wasn’t successful. The clinic retrieved a few eggs, but only two made it to embryos, and the fresh embryo transfer didn’t work. That experience was emotionally draining. The clinic’s lack of support left me feeling alone and uncertain.

That’s when I turned to you. We started acupuncture and supplements, and your guidance helped me approach the process differently. I switched to a new clinic, which was much more supportive. They recommended combining acupuncture with IVF, and this time, everything felt more aligned.

Michelle (06:01) It’s amazing how much the right environment and support can make a difference.

Sarah (06:22) Absolutely. The second clinic was so thorough and caring. They retrieved more mature eggs, and six of them made it to embryos. We planned a frozen embryo transfer but decided to wait a few months to let my body recover. Meanwhile, I continued with acupuncture and the protocol you recommended.

Then, something unexpected happened. Before the transfer, I got pregnant naturally. It was a complete surprise. I couldn’t believe it after everything I had been through.

Michelle (08:27) That’s incredible! Your story is so inspiring because you had every reason to feel defeated, yet you never gave up. What kept you going?

Sarah (10:00) I’d say it was a combination of faith and determination. I also had a dream after my first failed IVF that really stuck with me. In the dream, a man in brown clothing with a beard stood over me and placed his hands out, giving me energy. It felt like a message not to give up.

Michelle (12:14) That’s so powerful. Dreams can be deeply meaningful, especially during such emotional journeys.

Sarah (13:32) It was. That dream, combined with my spiritual practices, gave me strength. I started focusing on connecting with God and nature, walking barefoot in the sand, and appreciating the present moment. I also began meditating and visualizing my body healing and preparing for pregnancy. Those practices made a huge difference.

Michelle (17:22) It’s amazing how those connections to faith and nature can create such profound shifts. And I remember when you first came in, your hands were very cold, which indicated poor blood flow. Improving circulation was a key part of the treatment.

Sarah (18:45) Exactly. My hands aren’t cold anymore, and I feel so much healthier overall. The blood flow improvements and supplements were game-changers.

Michelle (19:58) Blood flow is essential for nourishing the body and supporting fertility. In Chinese medicine, when the blood isn’t circulating well, it can cause stress and other issues. Supporting the body holistically allows it to do what it’s meant to do naturally.

Sarah (22:33) I agree. Another big takeaway for me was learning that not all clinics or protocols are the same. Switching to a more supportive clinic and waiting for my body to recover before the frozen embryo transfer were critical steps. Patience and intuition played huge roles.

Michelle (23:44) Your intuition and persistence were key. And I’ll admit, when I first met you, I had a feeling you’d be successful. But I always try to stay neutral because I never want to give false hope. It’s about supporting the process and trusting your body.

Sarah (24:26) Thank you for believing in me. That belief made such a difference, along with everything I learned about visualization and spirituality. I’ve come to realize how powerful those tools are.

Michelle (29:23) It’s true. Visualization and faith are incredibly powerful. Thank you so much for sharing your story, Sarah. Your journey will inspire so many others who are navigating similar challenges.

Sarah (30:02) Thank you for having me, Michelle. I’m so grateful for the opportunity to share my story and hopefully give hope to others. Never give up—the results are worth it.

Michelle (30:30) Absolutely. Thank you again for opening your heart and inspiring others.

EP 320 Are Cold Plunges good or bad for fertility?

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive into the fascinating world of cold plunges—a trending wellness practice that seems to be everywhere lately. I explore the science behind cold exposure, its incredible health benefits like boosting mood, metabolism, and reducing inflammation, and how it impacts fertility for both men and women. Drawing on both scientific insights and Traditional Chinese Medicine perspectives, I share practical tips on how to use cold plunges mindfully and discuss when and how they might be most beneficial. Whether you’re curious about trying a cold plunge or wondering how it fits into your fertility journey, this episode offers a balanced and intuitive approach to this powerful practice.

Takeaways

• Cold plunges boost mood, energy, and metabolism by activating the sympathetic nervous system.

• Brown fat activation improves metabolic health and insulin sensitivity.

• Helps regulate testicular temperature for male fertility but may lower testosterone levels.

• Reduces inflammation, improves circulation, and supports metabolic health for female fertility.

• Best done during the follicular phase, not during menstruation.

• Alternating cold and hot exposure stimulates yin and yang balance.

• Limit to once a month to avoid creating a "cold" pattern or energy depletion.

• Pay attention to how your body feels; avoid if it feels draining.

• May benefit those with PCOS or insulin resistance.

• Pair with heat exposure for a balanced effect.

• Avoid overdoing extreme temperature practices for fertility balance.

Research on cold plunges: 

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3895006/#:~:text=Cold%20exposure%20increased%20metabolic%20rate,in%20body%20weight%20or%20adiposity

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33764169/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9518606/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1890772/

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today we're going to be talking about a hot topic, but it's not so hot. We are talking about cold plunges and you may have heard about the benefits. It seems to be, again, a hot topic, something that you see many people talking about.

You see lots of influencers getting to cold plunges. You see them popping up in all kinds of spas. So I wanted to talk about the benefits and not just the benefits, but if they are good for fertility, I often get the question asked by my patients and my fertility clients. So let's dive in.

 So, let's talk about the science behind cold plunges, really what they do to the body and what they really are. So cold plunges is really going into very, [00:01:00] very cold water, like ice water for a short amount of time. So it could be 30 seconds, it could be up to a few minutes, which honestly I could never do a few minutes of it, but it's really just immersing the body in very cold water and then coming out.

Obviously you don't want to stay too long because that's not healthy either. And what that does is it actually activates your sympathetic nervous system, which is the fight or flight response. And when that happens, it actually like stimulates the body and a surge of beta endorphins and

noradrenaline occur, and that can impact your energy, it can impact your mood, it also

activates brown fat tissue and increasing metabolism, so many different health benefits can occur,

and that includes increasing metabolic rates, so It can force the body to work harder to maintain its core temperature, and then what it also does is it forces [00:02:00] the blood to go inwards so that the heat

is protected and the blood goes towards your organs.

It's also shown to help with insulin sensitivity, so it can improve your

response to insulin.

And since it helps with metabolism, it can also help with weight management.

I personally have done cold plunges in the past, and I will say that it has a very relaxing impact on my body. , not relaxing when you're doing it. Absolutely not. It's very, very stressful actually. And you can feel stressed when you're doing it. And it also causes you to breathe really fast. and it causes, you could definitely feel the stress.

So when you're going through that, you're obviously going through some stress cause your body's not used to taking that temperature. But then after you get out, you start to feel the endorphins and you start to feel really relaxed. When I have done it, I've done it in a spa setting where you can [00:03:00] do the cold plunges and then you can go into a warm environment and then go back and forth a couple of times.

So what that could do is it actually from a Chinese medicine perspective, what I see it as is that you are forcing yin and yang. mechanism in your body by doing that, it actually wakes up that yin and yang response in the body. And it forces you to go from really cold to really hot to really cool to really hot.

And what that can do is when you're forcing that dial, that your body's going to start to regulate itself. It almost instigates or It prompts the body to regulate itself and create balance.

There have been a lot of studies that have been published, and it has been found to show lots of health benefits, including health and mood, cardiovascular health.

So it definitely seems to be beneficial overall for the health. Now, when it comes to male fertility, the idea is, is[00:04:00] that temperature is really important and it plays a very, very important role when it comes to the testicles. And sperm production requires a temperature of about 3. 6 to 7. 2 degrees Fahrenheit lower than the core body temperature.

And this is why the testicles are located outside of the body. So you may have often heard that for male fertility, it's important that they don't heat up the testicle area. So many times people will say not to go into spas or saunas or steam rooms and to avoid hot tubs. And that is the reason why is because having that high temperature is going to cause issues with the sperm production.

But it also is the reason why a varicose cell impacts sperm health is because the varicose cell is basically a varicose vein, a vein that's [00:05:00] expanded in the testicular region. for your attention. And where there's blood, there's heat. So because it's expanded, there's more blood volume and that blood volume creates more heat around that area, which impacts sperm production.

So the thought is, is that , cold plunges can also maintain the optimal temperature for sperm production by lowering the temperature of the body.

However, what's been shown in some cases is that cold stimulation actually decreases testosterone levels by sometimes up to 10%. Is something to definitely consider.

So the question is, should you as a male start to do cold plunges or should you just avoid heat and that is. definitely something to consider. So

 When it comes to female fertility, we know that other benefits are reduced [00:06:00] inflammation for cold plunges, stress reduction, improved circulation, metabolic health. So these are all things that can definitely benefit female fertility. , Now, my thing is, is that I would not suggest to do this all the time if you were to do it.

I think that doing it once in a while, maybe once a month, and then also including some, heat exposure for women back and forth, just once in a while to reset the system of the body probably won't hurt. And if anything, it might activate the body and create a more calm response in the body.

And as I always say, it's really important to listen to your body. Ultimately, when you feel good, you feel good. it is your body speaking to you and communicating that whatever you're doing makes it feel good. So it is important to follow that. However, if you feel more fatigue, more drained, then your body's telling you maybe don't do it too much.

I [00:07:00] personally think because it is an extreme type of stimulation, it might be best to Do this more of a once in a while thing, so no more than once a month, and it might be beneficial to do it once a month because you are stimulating , the yin and yang response for a female body, and you're also possibly lowering inflammation for both male and female.

However, doing it more, could also impact having too much cold in the system and I often talk about this in general, that with female fertility specifically, it's important to keep a warm womb and to also not put your feet on cold tile. I always talk about drawing up cold. Now that is also a chronic thing.

So doing this all the time. Is a different story than to do it really quickly and then you're right out and then your body has enough time to [00:08:00] regulate so that you're not really doing this chronically and you're not creating like a cold pattern from this quick exposure. So there's a difference between doing something habitually and chronically versus doing something for a quick exposure.

It also might help for specific conditions. So my thought would be based on the fact that it lowers inflammation, And of course, again, there's not a lot of studies on this. So this is just really my perspective on it. The fact that it lowers inflammation and the fact that it can increase metabolism and increase insulin sensitivity, I would say it may benefit anybody who's a little more overweight or has PCOS with insulin sensitivity or

insulin resistance. So I would say why not try it out, try it once and then don't do it like too many times, too much[00:09:00] repetition. I would definitely try it like about once a month just to get things stimulated.

I would also say that I would avoid doing this during the menstrual cycle. I would do this only in the follicular phase after the bleed before ovulation. That would be the only time that I would suggest doing this 

for women.

I would also listen to your body and not overdo it, not stay too long inside the cold plunge especially if it's your first time and you're not used to it. So, test it out. But again, isn't something that I suggest doing on a regular basis. And similarly, I would say the same thing with hot yoga.

Hot yoga is great once in a while in moderation, especially if you tend to be something called yin deficiency, you find that your fluids are low, you tend to be more dry, your skin is dry, and you're thirsty a lot. I would definitely suggest,[00:10:00] not to do hot yoga all the time. And I would say I would only suggest it once in a while.

 If you have a strong constitution that is able to withstand the heat and not get fully, fully depleted for those individuals, I would definitely say once in a while to do hot yoga if it really relaxes you, that's okay. My concern is not to get too depleted by extreme heat or extreme cold.

And so it's important to really consider that when you're trying to conceive, you don't want to overdo anything and cause too much stress on the body. A little stress is okay. That's actually normal and it actually helps your body to get stronger. But you just don't want to overdo it. So it really, a lot of this is intuitive.

A lot of it is common sense. A lot of it is really paying attention to your body and your body sensations and what your body's telling you.

So that is my two cents on the cold plunges. I know this [00:11:00] is a little shorter of an episode compared to what I usually do, but , I felt like it was an important thing to address because it does seem to be a topic that comes up a lot as of late so Those are my thoughts on it.

I definitely think it can Stimulate that yin and yang balance by forcing the body. Sometimes that's okay, but you just don't want to do this all the time. So I hope that helped you answer your questions if that was on your mind. And I want to say thank you so much for tuning in today, and I hope you have a beautiful day.

EP 319 A Story of Resilience, Heartbreak, and Hope on the Journey to Parenthood | Shea Bart Andreone

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I speak to author of “Carry On” @carryonthebook Shea Bart Andreone @shea_andreone . Shea shares her deeply personal journey through fertility challenges, pregnancy struggles, and the emotional rollercoaster of loss and hope. She discusses her desire to become a parent, the difficulties she faced with hyperemesis gravidarum, and the heartbreak of losing a pregnancy. Ultimately, Shea emphasizes the importance of resilience and the joy of welcoming her children into the world. In this heartfelt conversation, Shea Bart Andreone shares her journey through the challenges of parenthood, including loss, the search for control, and the importance of community support. She discusses her book 'Carry On', which compiles true stories of individuals navigating the complexities of starting a family. The conversation emphasizes the significance of hope and resilience in the face of adversity, and the need for emotional support in healing. Be sure to tune in as you won’t want to miss our deeply touching and hope filled conversation!

Takeaways

• Shea always wanted to be a parent and started her journey with high hopes.

• Fertility struggles are common and can be emotionally taxing.

• Hyperemesis gravidarum is a severe form of morning sickness that can lead to significant health challenges.

• Shea experienced extreme nausea and weight loss during her pregnancy.

• The emotional toll of pregnancy loss is profound and can lead to feelings of guilt and despair.

• Shea's journey highlights the unpredictability of pregnancy and the importance of being adaptable.

• The desire to have children can drive individuals to persevere through immense challenges.

• Finding peace is possible, even amidst uncertainty.

• Loss can lead to discovering new activities that provide control.

• Writing can be a powerful outlet for processing experiences.

• Community support is crucial for those facing fertility challenges.

• The journey of parenthood can be isolating without connection.

• Stories of others can provide comfort and understanding.

• It's important to seek out community and support during difficult times.

Guest Bio:

Shea Bart Andreone was raised in Queens, New York, but moved west and loves California. She is a writer of numerous plays, essays, and maintains a blog called Twig Hugger. Shea has written multiple articles for mom and parent-oriented platforms (The Next Family, Motherfigure, LA Parent, Your Teen Magazine, and Chicken Soup For The Soul). Carry On is her first book and she hopes that it can provide hope and comfort to those who are on the fertility journey. 

Websites:

https://sheabartandreone.com/ 

Instagram: @carryonthebook @shea_andreone 

X: X.comCarryOnTheBook

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast,

Shea Bart Andreone (00:01)

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Michelle (00:04)

Yeah, it's a pleasure having you and I would love for you to share your story and what got you inspired to write your book Carry On. would love for you to share that with the listeners.

Shea Bart Andreone (00:17)

I would love to. So I always loved kids. I always wanted a younger sibling. I wanted to babysit when my parents decided they were never gonna have another child. I'm the youngest with a big age gap. So I took on all things that could keep me around.

Michelle (00:36)

Mm-hmm.

Shea Bart Andreone (00:45)

kids so that I felt like I could be a big sister or a babysat. And I taught kids and ran day camps and stuff like that. I always knew that I wanted to be a parent and start a family. So when I did finally find the person to do that with, I thought, okay, well, when we get to that moment, it's just gonna be easy peasy and

you know, that's so exciting. We make the decision and we go. And of course, like every listener of your podcast and many, many more people around the world, it doesn't always work that way. So it took me quite a bit of time to figure out what to do. You you're instructed pretty quickly to try for longer and

I just, think I knew something was going to stop me unless I got help, but I, I did see my regular OB at the time and she suggested that we do an HSG, where they flush the iodine up your fallopian tubes. And she discovered that, I, I, you can really feel that.

Michelle (02:04)

Not a fun test.

Yeah, it's crazy, but I hear so many things, so many stories, and I just wish doctors would just let people know like what's coming.

Shea Bart Andreone (02:19)

Yeah, like exactly what you're gonna feel. Yeah, no, we have to experience it for ourselves. So that resulted in finding out that I had a fibroid right at the opening of my uterus. So I had scheduled the surgery to get it removed and somehow in...

Michelle (02:21)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Shea Bart Andreone (02:48)

that, well, not somehow. We know how making babies can work. I guess my husband and I were continuing to try and because of the HSG, it pushed the fibroid a little bit out of the way and I was able to actually conceive. But the fibroid and the pregnancy, they were fighting for the blood supply.

Michelle (03:16)

So just backing up, were you about to do surgery for it, but then you stopped because you got pregnant?

Shea Bart Andreone (03:22)

Yeah, so I scheduled a surgery and then ended up in crazy, crazy pain. like pain I'd never experienced before, like just shocking, like sharp, sharp pain. And I ended up calling the doctor and she said, go to the emergency room. And it was in the emergency room that I found out I was actually pregnant.

Michelle (03:30)

Mm.

wow.

Shea Bart Andreone (03:52)

And I was told basically, you gotta just kind of deal with this because they didn't know which one would win out. So I waited and I took whatever I could for pain, but not a lot, because I was like, well, I think I had a feeling like, no, no, no, I'm pregnant. Like, this is amazing.

Michelle (04:06)

Got it.

wow, you felt it before they confirmed it?

Shea Bart Andreone (04:22)

No, no, no. I definitely didn't know when I went in, but once I was, I was very protective. I was like, no, I don't, you can tell me all you want that like, there's a chance this won't stick, but I'm going to protect this. So I was very, very careful. And then in the end, that doctor was really not helpful. And I had like,

Michelle (04:25)

Okay.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. For sure.

Mm-hmm.

Shea Bart Andreone (04:51)

crazy pain on the following Monday and ended up like my sister-in-law said, just go to my doctor, just go to my doctor. So I went to her doctor and I had a very like strong clear line in the sand that I would not go to a male doctor. And I felt like at that point I was like, okay, like we all have things on this journey that we think we're not gonna do. And we think we're gonna like,

Michelle (05:09)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Shea Bart Andreone (05:19)

okay, I'm never gonna do IVF or I'm never gonna do IUI and I'm not gonna, and then like, you're like, well, I'm gonna change that. So I started with him and I really do think that because of that situation, I ended up in the right hands. So luckily for me, like that pregnancy ended up sticking.

Michelle (05:22)

It's true.

that's great.

Shea Bart Andreone (05:49)

and that fibroid eventually just sort of died off. However, within, I think I felt good for like two weeks and then I started feeling symptoms of hyperemesis gravidarum, which is, yeah, a few weeks in, I started feeling severely nauseous and,

Michelle (06:06)

Mm-hmm. You mean early in the pregnancy.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Shea Bart Andreone (06:18)

I thought, okay, well, this will pass. This is what they tell people, like, know, morning sickness, but it's not morning sickness. Hyperamesis Gravidarum is like, if I threw up eight times in a day, that was a really good day. And I broke all the blood vessels in my face daily from the pressure of vomiting. And the blood vessels in my eyes were...

Michelle (06:35)

Wow, yeah.

Shea Bart Andreone (06:48)

Like my, I had bloodshot eyes and just could not remember a time that I liked food. Like it was so awful to me. Like the idea of it, sipping water, anything. And originally, like...

Michelle (07:04)

Yeah, that's that's a big thing, too, because people get dehydrated.

Shea Bart Andreone (07:08)

Yeah, yeah, and I tried everything. tried like, you know, motion sickness bands and you know, there were lollipops that were supposed to help and ice pops and nothing, nothing, nothing. And I just didn't want anything. And that, you know, began the insane journey of my pregnancy because that led me to lose about 15 pounds.

Michelle (07:18)

Mm-hmm.

Wow.

Shea Bart Andreone (07:37)

And my doctor didn't quite realize how bad it was. And when he did, he was like, I am giving you medication that is going to stop the, you know, the vomiting for a few days and you have to eat. If you do not gain weight by Monday or stay the same, I have to admit you for a feeding tube. So we took the weekend.

Michelle (07:54)

Yeah.

Wow.

Shea Bart Andreone (08:06)

And my husband was like, can you think of anything, any food you ever liked? And I was like, pizza.

Michelle (08:18)

Ha ha ha ha!

Shea Bart Andreone (08:21)

For like kid food, I went to growing up, had, I think was, had Elio's frozen pizza and tater tots. And I was like, I don't even know where that came from, but okay, let's try that. And the medication was so intense that you basically like, you could eat and then you'd fall asleep. And so that started on a Friday and Saturday midday, I woke up and I felt like,

Michelle (08:23)

Yeah.

The simple things.

Shea Bart Andreone (08:51)

I couldn't stop moving. Like I was very restless. And I felt like this must be what restless leg syndrome is like, but it feels like this for my whole body. And that was crazy because I'd never experienced a situation like that before where you feel like it's out of control. Like you can't say kind of wreaks havoc on your mind because you don't want to keep moving, but you are.

Michelle (08:53)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

wow.

Shea Bart Andreone (09:21)

Yeah.

Michelle (09:21)

Yeah, yeah. Is that from, was that from the medication side effect? my God, you poor thing. You got tortured.

Shea Bart Andreone (09:25)

Yeah.

It's the yeah, it got worse too. Then I got jaw lock.

Michelle (09:31)

no.

no.

Shea Bart Andreone (09:37)

So like my entire jaw just locked to one side. And once that started, it didn't let go for 16 hours.

Michelle (09:42)

no.

my God.

Shea Bart Andreone (09:51)

And the only thing that would help is sometimes I could put all my upper body weight over my husband's shoulder and it would like kind of fall. And at one point in that time it moved to the other side, but it was so uncomfortable and so painful. And I remember walking to use the bathroom at some point and looking at the toilet and thinking, I'd actually rather throw up than this. Like, I'm like.

Michelle (10:01)

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

poor thing. my gosh. And was that also from the medication? Wow.

Shea Bart Andreone (10:24)

Yeah. And it's interesting how your brain can only focus on one thing at a time, because in the back of my mind, I was like, how could I remain pregnant through all of this? my body is going through so much trauma right now. I don't know how. And

Michelle (10:34)

Mm-hmm.

Shea Bart Andreone (10:49)

I knew that my husband was thinking the same thing, but we weren't discussing it because I was so distracted by the pain and the discomfort. But I knew that he was calling the doctor and trying to find out like, would this baby be okay? And fortunately he got the answer that like, this, guess what you eat doesn't.

Michelle (11:08)

Mm-hmm.

Shea Bart Andreone (11:18)

always and what you what medicine doesn't always go fully like you do filter those things out to a degree. And I remember the next, you know, that was over the weekend and I went back and I, I was able to maintain my weight. So he did not have to send me to the hospital. But I remember, like waiting with bated breath to see that ultrasound on Monday morning. And

Michelle (11:46)

Yeah.

Shea Bart Andreone (11:46)

there was the baby inside with its legs crossed and an arm back and like yeah I've been fine in here.

Michelle (11:55)

lounging. That's amazing.

Shea Bart Andreone (12:00)

Like, I know you've been in hell, but I'm having a vacation.

Michelle (12:03)

I'm sure you tell the story. It's interesting because my mom actually reminded me again. You have stories that you just keep hearing over and over and over again. But truthfully, mean, suffered secondary infertility to conceive me. So I'm kind of a product of secondary infertility. And she's tried and tried and tried. She said every time I get my period, I cry.

Shea Bart Andreone (12:06)

Yeah.

Michelle (12:28)

And it was really the stories of the people that I treat. It's so crazy how that comes full circle. And I'm kind of like the proof that a woman can go through all of this and still have a baby. And she also had the same thing. I don't know how severe it was, but to the point where she lost so much weight, she was under a hundred pounds and her doctor said, listen, we got to abort this child. You're not going to survive. And she's like, no way.

You know, and it was, it's pretty crazy. You know, you go through this journey and then you advice that you're like, no, no, no, no, no, this is not happening.

Shea Bart Andreone (13:04)

Yeah, you get advice and then also like you try again and willingly enter something this crazy because the power and the, you know, the need and the, yeah. Yeah. That desire to have children is, is pretty huge. pretty, it's, it's, it's quite magical and

Michelle (13:10)

Mm-hmm.

The belief really, right? The belief in that desire.

Shea Bart Andreone (13:34)

wondrous, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle (13:37)

I agree. I think it's meant to be there. Like, I don't think that it's a random thing. People feel that really strong calling and I don't think it's random. It's not just something that was kind of planted there for no reason. I think it's because you're meant to find the baby in one way the other. Like you were saying before about how maybe you don't expect it to be IVF, but maybe it is, and then you can kind of go back and forth. But even with...

egg donor or embryo donor or even adoption. I've had people talk about that and they said I was meant to have that baby. Like it was that calling. just that I was trying to control how it was going to show up.

Shea Bart Andreone (14:17)

Yeah, yeah, it's really wild. mean, the things when you listen to other people's stories, sometimes you're like, why didn't you stop? And like, mean, or how did you keep going? How did you persevere? like, I follow someone online who is pregnant right now. And this is the first positive pregnancy test that she's gotten in over eight, like in eight years of trying. While you wait.

Michelle (14:28)

Mm-hmm.

I think I saw that one. Yes. It was amazing. It was really, my God, I got the chills with the video that she showed. was like, that was amazing.

Shea Bart Andreone (14:47)

Yes, it was amazing!

Yeah, like to see that double line. yeah, that's a long time. And people go through a lot. And it is not something for anyone on the outside to judge or decide or advise on because that desire, like you said, it's pretty wild. Yeah, yeah.

Michelle (14:57)

Yeah, after eight years.

Yeah.

It's real.

Shea Bart Andreone (15:22)

So in the end, I did get a very healthy baby and a baby girl. did not find out the gender and in the middle of a contraction, my husband, we had names for both a boy and a girl and in the middle of a contraction, my husband goes, I gotta tell you something. I don't like the boy's name. And I was like, I can't talk to you right now.

Michelle (15:45)

That's funny. That is so funny.

Shea Bart Andreone (15:52)

So for that sake, we were very happy to have a girl. Like we were happy to have a girl anyway. think we admitted to each other we really wanted a girl, but like, obviously we would have been over the moon for anything except that I don't know what we would have named that boy. So, you know, when she was about...

Michelle (15:59)

Yeah.

Yeah, that's so funny.

Shea Bart Andreone (16:17)

close to three. I wanted some time. I was really, really enjoying just like feeling healthy and raising a baby and not rushed to have another one. And so I thought, okay, well, when she like goes into preschool, then I can try to do this again. And this time I did get pregnant right away. And

was pretty sick right away as well. And my doctor found this team that like sends an IV, like teaches you guys, like a couple to do their own IVs. And I was set up to give myself, to put a port into my belly every morning with an IV that I wore as a pack.

Michelle (17:01)

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Shea Bart Andreone (17:16)

that was to help me to stop throwing up. And unfortunately,

I feel like, you know, anything I deal with, like there's research that comes out like a year or two later that like, that could have helped me in that situation, but unfortunately it didn't. But the medicine that was given to me at the time is no longer on the market for pregnancies because it can stop the heart from beating. So in...

Michelle (17:33)

wow.

Uh-huh.

my gosh, wow.

Shea Bart Andreone (17:55)

you know, at our 12 week ultrasound, which I was hoping to celebrate, was, and talk about like power and instinct. That morning, I felt like something was wrong. And I don't know where that feeling came from, because it's too soon at that point to really feel anything, you know.

Michelle (18:15)

my gosh.

Shea Bart Andreone (18:24)

moving around, but I just felt like something was wrong. And I remember looking at the sky and it was like this perfect blue and telling myself that no matter what happens today, that sky is still going to be blue. And just to hold on to like, not everything is lost. And I don't, I really don't even know why I felt this like foreboding, foreshadowing feeling. but

Michelle (18:43)

Mm-hmm.

Shea Bart Andreone (18:54)

know, the doctor was, we were waiting in the room for the doctor and my husband was joking around and I said, I don't know, I don't feel like joking around. you know, when the doctor came in all friendly right away, I said, don't feel, I feel like some, I was very straightforward in a way that I don't think I usually am. And I was right, there was no heartbeat.

Michelle (19:03)

Mm-hmm.

Wow.

Mm-hmm.

Shea Bart Andreone (19:21)

and I was too far along to like have anything done in the office. So I had to get checked into the hospital and yeah, it was really, really rough and awful because I felt like...

I tried so hard to do the right thing and to like keep everybody healthy. And it was awful doing like, you know, the port and injecting myself every day and all of that. And it still didn't work. So we ended up naming that baby, the name that I...

Michelle (19:43)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shea Bart Andreone (20:08)

show is with my, what I thought with my husband, but he didn't really like it. And I said, I know you didn't really like this name, but can I use it for this baby? And in that moment, he said, yep, but why don't you give all the other names that we're not gonna use next time. And that was the first time I heard him agree, like, we'll try again.

Michelle (20:13)

you

wow.

Shea Bart Andreone (20:34)

I hadn't thought that, like, guess it was, like, it was a lot for me, but I knew I wanted to try, but I kind of felt like, like I said about advice that came from others, like, it felt like everything in the universe was saying, you have gone through enough, take your one child, be grateful and move on. And for him to say, we will try again, it just gave me such a sense of relief that we were on the same page.

But we did agree that no matter what happened, this would be the last time because our daughter couldn't live through that again. And we couldn't, you know, do that. So we were gonna, so we tried again this time with no medication and only an IV for fluid. So I...

Michelle (20:59)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Shea Bart Andreone (21:24)

It's strange, hyperemesis is a weird thing. Like I definitely got it all three times that I was pregnant, but with the first one and the third one, the time of day that I could eat was totally different. I, with this, the last pregnancy, I could eat something in the morning, but once like one o'clock came, that's it. Like the gate was closed. Like there's no more putting any food or liquid into your body.

Michelle (21:30)

Mm-hmm.

huh.

Shea Bart Andreone (21:54)

so I did what I can, like I did what I could to eat before that time. and you know, we navigated it and, and I had a healthy baby boy. so I, I am very, very grateful and definitely, I'm aware, especially when I talk to others that are in the middle of their story.

Michelle (22:07)

amazing.

Mm-hmm.

Shea Bart Andreone (22:24)

that

You don't know how your journey is going to end. really don't know how you're going to get to where you get to. But,

I know it's so cliche, like, whatever is supposed to happen, like the end of the story, it works out in the end. Like whether or not you get the biological child or adoption or foster or five dogs.

Michelle (22:56)

Yeah. Yeah.

Shea Bart Andreone (22:58)

you find peace at some point. I, my heart, yeah, my heart goes out to the people that are still in that journey and they don't have the ending yet.

Michelle (23:02)

Yeah, I mean that makes sense.

Yeah, it's the ending. It's, things start to make sense at the end. And then you realize, had it not been for that exact moment, the genetics, all the alignment wouldn't be that exact child that you have. And, you know, obviously when you're holding that child in your hands, you're like, I wouldn't change this for anything. but sometimes it can be really scary because when you're going through it, you're walking into like a dark room, cause you have no idea how things are going to play out.

Shea Bart Andreone (23:37)

Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle (23:38)

And that the unknown, as we know, is like the scariest things for humans. all, nobody likes that. It's just the unknown. And especially when it comes to such a strong desire that is so primal. Yeah.

Shea Bart Andreone (23:43)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And so universal. mean, it's just procreating. That's what we think we're wired. I mean, we are wired and we think that we're meant to do it and it doesn't work out that way for everybody. So in all of that, for me though, especially in the miscarriage part, I felt like

Michelle (23:59)

Yep.

Yeah.

Shea Bart Andreone (24:21)

I didn't know who to go to and I didn't know where to, like, didn't feel, obviously I had at the time, like a three year old. And so either everyone around me in my circle at the time had a second child already or was trying to. And I didn't, I don't want to go to those people in that time.

So I ended up calling a friend of mine who had also lost several babies at the same week because I needed very specific support at that time. Like someone who really

Michelle (25:00)

wow.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's somebody who can understand.

Shea Bart Andreone (25:09)

Yeah, like understand exactly. And I talked to her and then she maybe led me to someone else. And I discovered that each woman that I spoke to had felt such a loss of control with their trajectory of what they had planned.

that they found activities that they could control to keep them a little bit grounded. It's such an ungrounding time. And one of them was like painting pottery, you know, plant pots. One ran a marathon. One was cooking and started to become a chef.

Michelle (25:45)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shea Bart Andreone (26:06)

And I realized that there were these like stories of activities that have, and, you know, hobbies or whatnot that came out of this. And I, I was like, okay, I got to find my, activity. So, and, and like I said, like something I can control, something I can, you know, seek from start to finish and have an outcome.

Michelle (26:07)

wow.

Shea Bart Andreone (26:36)

because I can't do that with a baby.

Michelle (26:36)

Mm-hmm.

That's so interesting. This is the first time I've ever heard anybody put it in that way. I find it so interesting and I think that is really powerful.

Shea Bart Andreone (26:48)

Yeah, it made sense to me once I realized this common thread. I was like, I get it. So I took up sewing and realized really quickly that is not going to be my thing. was one of those things I was always curious about and I like maybe took an eighth grade and didn't totally understand it. And so I was like, I'm going to try it now. And I was like,

Michelle (26:57)

Mm-hmm.

Which that happens too.

Shea Bart Andreone (27:18)

Nope, don't have any control over this either. But I was writing and I decided, that is something that I can do and I really love it and it can be an outlet for me. And so I decided to, because I couldn't think about anything else, to compile these stories from people.

Michelle (27:19)

Yeah.

Shea Bart Andreone (27:47)

and their hurdles and their stories of trying to become a parent. And that is how the book, Carry On, came to be. And it is stories of infertility and adoption and fostering. And most stories in the book have a happy ending, but not all the stories in the book.

Michelle (27:57)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shea Bart Andreone (28:18)

And yeah, mean, a lot of them, like when you're in the, if you, before you get to the end of that chapter for that person, you're like, whew. But there, you know, every story has a beginning, a middle and an end. so it's been, it, it, it's been wild to, interview people and learn about people. And you know, it is, because it's.

Michelle (28:29)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shea Bart Andreone (28:47)

It's my book and I put it together with all these different people. I thought I was done with it a couple of years ago. And again, talk about control and you think you're going to put a deadline on yourself and it has a life of its own. But I made a fairly new friend in the last few years.

Michelle (28:56)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Things change.

Shea Bart Andreone (29:17)

And we got to know each other over something completely unrelated to fertility. And it was actually like activism against violence for something. we just connected and realized like, we should be friends, but we were so busy focusing on the cause that it took like a couple of months for us to get together and go for a walk before I like.

looked at her and said, so what do you do? Who are you? And she asked the same of me and I said, you I'm working on this book. And she said, if I had known you before, I probably would have been a chapter in your book.

Michelle (29:49)

Yeah.

my gosh, wow.

Shea Bart Andreone (30:05)

And it took me another couple of months of getting to know her and realizing that like, actually her story really does belong in this book and it is my book. So even though it's been done for a while, I'm adding it. So her story is one of the chapters in the book and she's the one that drew the line in the sand and said, I am never doing IVF. Like that's as far as I'll go.

Michelle (30:16)

Mmm. Wow.

Mm-hmm.

Shea Bart Andreone (30:34)

And if she didn't do IVF, she wouldn't have her child.

Michelle (30:41)

Wow, it's amazing how that happens.

Shea Bart Andreone (30:44)

Yeah, and she and her story is really fascinating too because

Like mine, her health was at risk, you know, in order to have her child, but she, you know, went through 20 weeks of pregnancy with twins via IVF and unfortunately she lost those babies. And then, you know, knew what to expect the next time around. But when she wanted a second child,

it was just too much for her to like endure again, but it wasn't an option for her to not have a second child. So her second child is actually adopted from Ethiopia.

Michelle (31:33)

my is beautiful.

Shea Bart Andreone (31:36)

So it's a pretty amazing story.

Michelle (31:40)

That's amazing. That's so beautiful. I had a guest, a previous guest, Dr. Lisa Miller. She wrote The Awakened Brain. She has an incredible story and it was, she was struggling to conceive for years with her husband. She had a voice in her head that kept saying, would you adopt if you had a child? If you were able to conceive, would you adopt? And she kept saying no. And then,

Shea Bart Andreone (31:48)

yeah.

Michelle (32:04)

one day randomly they saw something on TV. think they were either, I don't know if she was in hospital or a hotel. I don't remember exactly what it was, but like the TV wouldn't change. And it was stuck on this channel of a child that didn't have parents and her heart just blew wide open.

and her husband as well. And they're like, that's it. We're adopting. The second they decided to adopt and they got everything in order, she conceived. And she was meant to have her adoptive child. It was like something was calling her in that direction. She kept putting it off. And then all of sudden, boom, like in the right time, it was like, that was it. And then what happened was she heard that voice again in her mind.

if you were able to conceive naturally, would you still adopt? And she said, absolutely yes. Like after she decided and saw the child and it was just so powerful and she was getting all kinds of crazy signs. There was a duck that left an embryo in her door. It was right after she had a challenge conceiving. was just, it was so crazy. Like all these weird signs and it just tells you that they were part of a very cosmic intelligence.

there's got to be some kind of order that we're part of because it can't you can't explain that otherwise. There's something else. There's some other kind of divine intelligence. Yeah, yep.

Shea Bart Andreone (33:31)

Yeah, whatever you want to call it, it's out there. So did she end up adopting a child and having a biological child?

Michelle (33:40)

Yep. Yep. And she feels that her adoptive child is her child. Like that was the child she was meant to have. And then also her child and they were also meant to be together. It's amazing. It's just so wild on so many levels,

Shea Bart Andreone (33:56)

Yeah, yeah, I just met someone I did a panel for a fertility expo and the woman sitting next to me had dealt with secondary infertility and had no issue getting pregnant with her first child and then her second child just she could not get pregnant, could not get pregnant and they had been on a list for fostering.

kids and I didn't go like she wasn't ever planning to adopt but just to help other people and to take in another child and she was thinking she was going to get like a teenager and somehow they were called randomly like two years ago with a newborn that was available and so she has raised that you know baby since birth and

Michelle (34:29)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shea Bart Andreone (34:52)

now is trying to adopt the baby. of course, two years, you know, year and a half into having that baby, she did get pregnant and now has three children.

Michelle (34:55)

wow.

Wow. wow. you just don't know how and that's the part of relinquishing control. Like we know we have the desire and the desire is there for a reason. We just, we almost have to rely on that divine intelligence for the how. I think that that's what it is. And when we fight that, that's where I feel like it doesn't stop like you from having it eventually, but it stops the process. It delays it. think when we fight

Shea Bart Andreone (35:17)

Yeah. Yep.

Michelle (35:30)

that divine intelligence, that flow that's trying to move you in a certain direction.

Shea Bart Andreone (35:34)

Yeah, it's really true. And also, I don't know why I keep coming back to this today, but that middle part of the story, you have to find a way to be uncomfortable in that disequilibrium and manage it, because it's not going to stay like that. It won't. Yeah.

Michelle (35:50)

Mm-hmm.

Right. This too shall pass.

Shea Bart Andreone (36:01)

Even like in every situation, every, like this week, my daughter was expecting to get, she had worked really, really hard for a slot and an opportunity to do something. And they were looking at 10 people and knocking it down to six. And she ended up in the bottom four and did not get that opportunity. And I'm shocked. She's shocked, she's devastated.

Michelle (36:28)

Mm.

Shea Bart Andreone (36:30)

And as a parent, have that like, don't really want to be more upset for them. Like there's a fine line. You got to balance like your own emotions before you like, you know, and I just like the last couple of days, I've been like, okay, what's going to happen next? Because somehow something is going to make this better. Like, and I know something will happen. Like, but I feel like I'm on the edge of my seat sort of waiting for news.

Michelle (36:37)

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Shea Bart Andreone (37:00)

and that is familiar to me for like, you know, all the waiting and the waiting and the waiting of like, well, what's going to happen? Something is going to happen. Something exciting at some point. And you might have some pretty upsetting moments along the way, but something is going to happen.

Michelle (37:21)

Yes, I actually remember hearing, I don't remember where it was, but it was a rabbi who said that there was like a saying that everything in the end works out. And if it's not working out or everything in the end is good. And if it's not good, it's not the end. And I'm like, I love that. Yeah.

Shea Bart Andreone (37:36)

at the end. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I definitely feel that way.

but we get like, it's so global. It's so like, you know, whatever your politics are, you can feel like, shoot, you know, that happened. You know, like, we feel this universally, like many, many times, and it shifts, things shift. And then, yeah, and the story ends.

Michelle (38:03)

They do.

Yes. Yeah. Things definitely shift. I'm also kind of into Kabbalah right now, like, cause it's very similar to quantum physics. And I love that, how Joe Dispenza talks about that. But I find that a lot of like ancient traditions teach about, and these are things that aren't necessarily, you don't need to see them as like a religion per se. It's actually a way of life. It's almost like a science of life. And they talk about how, things do come up.

It is really for your soul to evolve. And sometimes those difficult things, like the second we react to them, then we sort of block ourselves off from the light and that like wisdom. But when we allow them, and this is, you know, they talked about it in Zen Buddhism, that's truly going with the flows. Like even when things are not comfortable, if you just allow for it to move and don't fight it.

with the non-resistance, then it actually helps to grow your soul, your spirit, your personality, your mind, your ability to handle things. It's pretty wild, but in some senses that

challenge

is what helps us. And the same thing if you look at a butterfly or even like a plant coming out of a seed and that hard shell and that fighting and that

challenge

of trying to get through. so it's painful, but they do it in that

That aspect of it, the difficulty, the challenge is really what helps us to become more of ourselves.

Shea Bart Andreone (39:44)

Yeah, to get to the other side.

Michelle (39:46)

Yeah, it's pretty wild. But like you said, it's universal. It could be applied to anything in your life. It could be applied to anything, to getting a job, to marrying the right partner. And it's very similar and also just any kind of challenges that happen in your life. And I've seen it so many times, just like you, like so many stories of people that had they looked at their history and said, okay, well, since I've never gotten pregnant,

Shea Bart Andreone (40:01)

Yeah.

Michelle (40:12)

before, like the one we just spoke about eight years of never getting pregnant, you could look at the history and say, based on the history and since it's been so long, that's going to probably be my future. And logically, it makes sense to think like that, but it's not necessarily the case for many people.

Shea Bart Andreone (40:15)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, and that belief of holding and hope, hope is like.

Michelle (40:35)

Mm-hmm.

Shea Bart Andreone (40:38)

That's such a challenging topic because it is the first thing to go, I think, when you're challenged and faced with a big hurdle to overcome. It's hard to think you can hold on to any sort of hope, but that's pretty much the key.

Michelle (41:00)

Yeah, it is. it's so interesting that it's so hard because the journey by itself, you're also faced with a lot of professionals that are giving you stats and numbers. And sometimes when you go into that, that's like a hope killer. It'll immediately say, well, I guess you can't really do it because look at your numbers are terrible. And based on this, it's just not possible for you. And so many people still conceive despite that and have healthy

children, know, births. So it's interesting how also the journey, the fertility journey just happens to be one that you're faced with a lot of hope killers in general. And so having to really stay grounded and really stay close to that desire and keep that like in your heart.

is very challenging. and you mentioned something that was actually really powerful. And I think that that is something that everybody should be given as a resource is just community connecting with people that know exactly what you're going through. And having that support is tremendous. And it's just nowadays, it's getting better than it used to. I feel like it used to be worse. Now we have social media.

We have lots of groups, we're connecting. And I think that that's huge. And I think that people who go through miscarriages doctors should be required to give them resources because you're dealing with a traumatic event and then you're sent home. And I think that that is not right. It's, it's like unethical to not provide support for people going through that.

Shea Bart Andreone (42:44)

I agree, and I think that is a big flaw in our medical community, like our medical world. takes, I mean, I don't want to be, put anybody in boxes, but the majority of the people who become doctors are very cerebral and understand the logistics of the physical body and don't always necessarily take into account the emotional side.

Michelle (43:13)

Mm-hmm.

Shea Bart Andreone (43:14)

I would say most for me of the doctors that I have seen don't handle the emotional stuff very well. And I think we're learning that mental health is such a massive, massive element that cannot be ignored and needs the attention. And I do think when you said it's getting better community wise, it is, from what it start like...

There, know, hundreds of years ago and in other countries still today, community is everything surrounding people. And I would say Western medicine has, you know, unfortunately kind of cut that out. And like even in other countries, I think it's France where you're, once you have a baby, you're, you're provided with physical therapy for the woman who gave, you for you as a woman.

Michelle (43:49)

Yeah, it's just true. Yeah.

Shea Bart Andreone (44:12)

You're given attention to heal yourself. And here we're sent home. You just had a baby. Bye. You're good. Not even 24 hours of any instruction. If you adopt a baby, you have to go through many, many, many hours of training. But on the other side, if you just birthed your own baby, you're sent home. Good luck.

Michelle (44:20)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Shea Bart Andreone (44:39)

So yeah, would say lack of community is still huge. And yes, you can find that online, but...

Michelle (44:49)

Right. It's not the same as actually having a physical community.

Shea Bart Andreone (44:52)

Yeah, and we still don't provide that for each other. And there's no wonder to me why doulas and midwives and lactation consultants and postpartum doulas are in such high demand. And unfortunately, that's a luxury.

Michelle (45:13)

Mm-hmm. Right, right. It's a luxury and it's expensive. Not everybody can afford it.

Shea Bart Andreone (45:17)

Yeah, but I understand the need for it. It makes perfect sense to me because it's like we're thrown into this dark tunnel without any light provided. It would be nice for someone to sit by your side and tell you how it's going to go. And yes, mothers and sisters and friends can do that to an extent, but yeah, it feels like there's a need.

Michelle (45:21)

Yep.

Shea Bart Andreone (45:47)

And yes, you can Google anything and you will find out.

Michelle (45:51)

It's not quite the same. Actually, if anything, it gives you more anxiety. It's so important. And I think that it's true. I, as you're talking, I'm like, this is basically the building blocks of society. Like if you have a good foundation that's done with love and wisdom and carries on like traditions and history that people have learned from and can teach it. I mean, it feels like almost there's a gap because

Shea Bart Andreone (45:54)

Yeah.

Michelle (46:21)

It used to be that way really back in the day. And then there was this gap with industrial age and we've sort of gotten more separated and now we're thirsting for it. And there is a very big demand for that.

Shea Bart Andreone (46:35)

Yeah, yeah. So that I, you know, not that a book can can cover that, but I feel like the aspect of why I chose to write this is just if it could help one person not feel as alone as I felt before I started finding these people. That's the goal because

I just, think even people who can find access to other people sometimes are afraid to like make that like leap to go find a support group or talk to other people. Like, you know, I have a friend right now, a very close friend dealing with cancer and she has three kids and there are so many groups available to them to...

Michelle (47:25)

I'm sorry to hear that.

Shea Bart Andreone (47:33)

speak to others who are dealing exactly with what they're dealing with, but they don't want to go. Yeah. I, you know, whatever way someone can find that community, whether it's through a podcast or, you know, or a group in the park or a Facebook group or, you know,

Michelle (47:37)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. It's so personal.

Shea Bart Andreone (48:01)

or in a book, just hope for people that they find people to connect to so they don't feel alone.

Michelle (48:09)

Yeah. I love that you wrote this book. think having stories is so powerful and just knowing these true stories and that people went through them and then you can relate to the challenges and then you can see how it ends for some people. I think that it's so powerful not to feel alone. I think that that's the big key is just not feeling alone. And like you said, the key is hope.

So for people who are listening to this, and I'm sure a lot of people are going to be wanting to look at this book right now, how can they find the book? How can they find out more about you?

Shea Bart Andreone (48:44)

My website is sheabartandrioni.com and the book is available on Amazon. It's also available in certain bookstores. You can walk into your local bookstore and order it through them if they don't have it. And the book is called Carry On and the subtitle is True Stories of the Heartbreak and Wonder of Trying to Start a Family.

Michelle (49:15)

Well, first of all, I really enjoyed this conversation with you today, Shay. This is really so heartfelt and it just, it was so symbolic of like the power of the human spirit and going through that and just everything that you shared today and opening up and I really appreciate you coming on. I really, really enjoyed

this conversation with you

Shea Bart Andreone (49:36)

Thank you. Thank you. was nice to meet you.

Michelle (49:40)

same. And also just for the listeners, if you guys want all of the links that Shay just mentioned are going to be in the episode notes, so you don't have to memorize everything that you just heard. You could just go back to the episode notes. So thank you so much for coming on today, Shay.

Shea Bart Andreone (49:55)

You're most welcome.

EP 318 The Mystical Journey of Conception | Kelly Meehan

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Kelly Meehan of @spiritbabymedium discusses her new book,'Notes from a Spirit Baby Medium,' and explores the themes of intuition, spirit baby communication, and the importance of community in the healing process. She emphasizes the connection between past experiences and intuition, the mystical journey of conception, and how babies communicate with their parents. The discussion highlights the significance of understanding one's own energy and the role of community in fostering healing and connection. In this conversation, we explore the profound connection between emotions, consciousness, and the external world. We discuss the importance of self-awareness, the journey of awakening, and the challenges of navigating personal healing while supporting others. Our conversation also delves into the complexities of grief and loss, particularly in the context of miscarriage, and highlights the significance of spirit baby communication as a resource for healing.

Takeaways

• Kelly's new book focuses on spirit baby communication.

• Intuition is a natural instinct that everyone possesses.

• Past experiences can hinder one's ability to trust intuition.

• Community plays a vital role in healing and connection.

• Babies are evolving and communicate with their parents.

• Frequency affects conception and the energy of babies.

• Meditation helps in understanding and connecting with intuition.

• Awareness of one's own energy is crucial for personal growth.

• Our consciousness can impact the world we perceive.

• Awakening can happen suddenly, like a light switch.

• Navigating personal healing requires setting boundaries.

• Grief and loss are unique experiences for everyone.

• Self-compassion is crucial during times of loss.

• Presence and connection are vital in supporting others.

• Emotions dictate much of our health and well-being.

• Meditation can aid in processing grief and loss.

• Spirit baby communication offers a unique healing perspective.

Guest Bio:

Kelly Meehan is a healing visionary, author of Notes From A Spirit Baby Medium - Everything you need to know about spirit baby communication, a birth advocate, and a holistic mother to her sons Rain and Forest. Her loving support and teachings focus on spirit baby communication in conception, energetic fertility wellness, intuitive health with medical intuition, pre-birth pregnancy communication, and sacred grief support in all areas of birth loss(miscarriage, stillbirth, termination & newborn to toddler). Kelly understands how to listen to the unseen and deeply felt world of spirit baby and conscious parenting.

Kelly shares her newest published book *Notes from A Spirit Baby Medium- Everything you need to know about spirit baby communication*This insightful book explores Spirit Baby Communication 101, testimonials and real messages from spirit baby, and how to bring intuition & psychic self awareness into your conception, pregnancy, and or healing birth loss. Available for purchase NOW! Amazon & Ingram Spark.

Kelly is the creator and host of SPIRIT BABY RADIO podcast with over 200 episodes by the end of 2024. She has been in the media on birth related and spiritual podcasts and radio shows as a guest expert, being invited and attending over 40 online global summits with topics such as: fertility, pregnancy, grief, and spirituality. She has been featured in Blogs and magazines, and articles.  She has been on a TV Show (Nighttime Prime) Nick MOMS sharing her work.  

Websites:

https://www.newearthchildren.com

https://www.spiritbabyacademy.com

Social Media:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/spiritbabymedium/

Facebook:Spirit Baby Medium/Medical Intuitive

Facebook:  SPIRIT BABIES: Conscious Conception, Intuitive Pregnancy, & Motherhood

Facebook: The After Life of Spirit Baby- Healing, Connections, & Love

Twitter: @SPIRITBABYRADIO

YouTube:www.youtube.com/@spiritbabycommunication

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome back to the podcast, Kelly.

Kelly (00:03)

Thank you for having me again.

Michelle (00:05)

I'm so excited to have you back. first of all, congratulations on your new book.

Kelly (00:12)

Yay, thank you. Do want me to tell you the title? Yes.

Michelle (00:15)

Yes. Tell us the title and tell us all about it. You've been on the podcast before. If you want to give us kind of like a brief background for people who are hearing you for the first time and haven't heard the podcast before, I would love for you to share your background and then also talk about your new book.

Kelly (00:26)

Yes.

Yeah, thank you. As always, I love Michelle and her work and yay. And I remember when you were writing your book, I was like, it was motivating me. was like, we're kind of like near each other, but then yours came out and it was awesome. And then I'm like, wait, where's my book? And so I'm Kelly. I go by Spirit Baby Media, medical intuitive and mentor. And I support that conception and pregnancy, birth loss in many different psychic energetic ways.

Michelle (00:37)

I love Kelly!

you

Kelly (01:03)

And my new book is called Notes from a Spirit Baby Medium, Everything You Need to Know About Spirit Baby Communication. And yeah, what else are we sharing? What do you want to know?

Michelle (01:15)

Okay, let's talk about it all. Let's talk about first of all, what intuition is how you connect with it and how you've kind of like, figured out that you have that.

Kelly (01:27)

Yeah, I love it. I actually I'm not going to divulge too much of this. I share a story in the beginning of the book on what brought me into the work. And it is a really fun story. And was like, Whoa, it's there. And so really, basically, I've always had extra sensory perception. I was born very different. Not only was it traumatic. I know we all have very traumatic, but sometimes in the trauma, you know, you work harder as the infant to be in the world. And sometimes it does open up other

levels of perceptions and abilities. And I didn't really fully discover that until I was a teenager. I feel like puberty is a very big time of expression. Puberty, you know, we can even go into like moon paws, I call it menopause, like these big, you know, shifts in our physiology, but also into our consciousness. And I just had feeling, perceptions, and it was nonstop after that until today. And I brought it.

my energetic psychological background, brought it into the energy of children and babies and supporting, again, the psychic, the energetic, the spiritual in therapeutic and loving ways. And the book has been written over a decade of my heart in the work. It's like, what have I seen? What have I known? And spirit baby communication is a term, but also,

There's not a lot of books now more after 2020. I feel like there's way more information. But before that, there really wasn't a lot about the before life. And I thought I've been writing the book for a long time and I go into the really the great mysteries because it's not like here is the here's the secrets of the before life, right? It's just like the afterlife of death. There's things that we feel and know because I do feel like it is inside us. There's a wisdom inside us that

Michelle (03:10)

Mm-hmm.

Kelly (03:19)

we are always in relationship with. my mission is to share that. And you just talk about intuition, it's all connected to that because we are naturally instinctually intuitive beings. And we can bring that in any part of our lives, whether in conception, outside of conception. And it's very valuable because we're all born too. We're all, my often joke is you were once a spirit baby being too. we don't, right?

Michelle (03:42)

Mm-hmm.

I love that. That's great. It's true.

Kelly (03:49)

Nobody thinks about that, but like, you know, let's say someone's on a fertility journey and they're struggling. Have you ever looked at your own birth into the world? Most people would say no. I don't know. My mom says it's good or she didn't like it or I wasn't breathing or she had birth loss before me or after and like, whoa, those are big things to the foundational formation of your reality and the consciousness of your parents in those times.

Michelle (03:59)

Right.

Kelly (04:18)

through loss, through struggle, through whatever, and they seep through, right? And so, yeah, remembering we were once all spirit baby beings and we come into this world and many of us, you know, looking to deepen that connection, like where are my children? I'm ready for that next level. And then I feel like then, know, Michelle, then the lessons begin. You know, there's, I don't think it's ever easy.

Michelle (04:35)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Kelly (04:45)

You know, like some people say, I guess it's all your perception of ease, right? Because having children is a huge heart commitment. It's not, you know, just, I don't think it's nonchalant. I think it's something powerful in in-between worlds that we bring life into this world. And that's something to reflect with too. It's incredible. And sometimes it takes longer for some people. And some people are still working towards it, you know?

Michelle (05:12)

For sure. And I was thinking while you were talking, there's just so much we're not conscious of. I think about that, like when it comes to intuition, it's just that we all have it. It's built in. It's kind of part of our working. it's part of what made us. It's that connection to why we're here.

but we're so not conscious of so many things and we're not conscious of things that can actually provide us empowerment.

Kelly (05:43)

No, and I blame culture, society, and subconscious programming. I have to laugh. We have to laugh sometimes because it could be very serious and there's a lot of fear. But I know me and Michelle, talked before, we're very optimistic, and even beyond that for the future that...

Michelle (05:51)

Yeah.

Kelly (06:03)

people will be intact with trusting their intuition more and more. And it's a really beautiful thing because your intuition is your own. It's not my intuition. Right? It's like, and that's the beautiful intelligence of just being alive and having a body is that we get to use our energy and connection with it in different ways. And sometimes we need to really slow down and be in the quiet, right?

Michelle (06:13)

Yeah.

Kelly (06:27)

through different practices to find our way, right? Especially when it's noisy, noisy life, noisy town, or maybe noisy city, noisy even upbringing, or maybe there's old energies that are noisy as well. But intuition is, to me, is a basic instinct. It's just like, yeah, like there, and you...

We do all use it all the time. Even if people feel like, I don't know if I use it. I'm like, you can distrust it and ignore it, but it's still there, right?

Michelle (06:57)

Yeah, for sure. Without a doubt. I feel like we all remember a time where we didn't listen to it and it was something important. We all remember those times. We're like, I knew it. I knew it and I didn't listen. And of course we remember it it was such a strong lesson. We felt it and we're like, my God.

Kelly (07:07)

Yes. Yes.

I think those are good when they happen. You know why? Because then it goes, you go, my gosh, like, see, like I told you so. And then you get to go, I feel like we get to stop and pause and have that awareness. And awareness is everything. And then almost to me is like creating a map of it, like a design.

Like, that's that connection and let's see what happens. And then you may be playing around with fear and intuition for a little bit to find the differences, which is very natural. But once we get really clear on ourselves, which is really through embodiment practices, through really healing our old traumas and our wounds, especially with parents, mother and father energies are so big because we get from that and we're like sifting through and finding where we are. And in that, you know,

Michelle (07:55)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kelly (08:02)

I pride myself in my intuition and I say that with such my own reverence because I do feel like I'm very intuitive and there's no shame in that. And I feel like are there times where I'm unintuitive? There are times where I'm fearful, but not unintuitive. I'm always intuitive, but the fear, if I know, I know myself very well that when fear comes up and there's sometimes, you know, I've managed it where it's fleeing these days.

Michelle (08:18)

Mm-hmm.

Kelly (08:32)

But sometimes big things will come in and I'm like, that sucks. I have to say it. I'm going, ooh, that's an unwinding. was like, ooh, this is big. And sometimes it has a lot to do with our, actually all the time it has to do with our past. Because present time, there's nothing wrong in the present time. And so, you know, it's like, learning the difference. And I do talk about that in my book, On a Conception Journey, Pregnancy Journey.

Michelle (08:36)

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

Kelly (08:59)

healing through lost journey, but I just think basic human nature journey, you're born, you're in a body, you were a baby being, it's like, you know, we're coming into re-remembrance more than anything with it. And that's great. And again, like you were saying, like, yeah, like, I've had times growing up where I could have been in bad situations, you know, when you're like in your 20s, like.

let's go party or do this. then something always shifted me and then something weird would happen. And I was like, whoa, what is that? So it also is very automatic pilot too. Sometimes we're not getting that like loud sound. it's, when that happens, I go, wow, okay. I was like, wow, I'm an automatic intuitive pilot sometimes. And I love that because it just means I'm just connecting with nature and just being, right?

That feels important.

Michelle (09:54)

Yeah, for sure. And also talk about connecting with your own intuition as a person who may not be used to doing that.

Kelly (10:03)

So the biggest obstacle to trusting intuition is going to be your past, right? And the environment that you're in creation with. just like, you know, because think about it when we were little children, we were so pure and intuitive and everything was connected. But then we become a part of the world in a way where we take on our families loads and lessons and it can even go further back. And we do sometimes have to find our way back to it and move into what was always there.

Michelle (10:08)

Mm-hmm. Like the memory.

Mm-hmm.

Kelly (10:33)

Right? So I think if somebody's saying, well, I'm not intuitive and I don't know what I'm doing, I'd say, are you grounded in your body even? And where is your body? Like, what is this vessel? And where is your own heart energy? Right? There's so many different ways we can take it. And then I think that hanging out with other people of like heart, like mind is infectious. And it will change our frequency and vibration to be in those spaces.

Michelle (10:41)

Mm-hmm.

Kelly (11:00)

So communities, this is the future forward energy is all about community. Even I just presented on an energy lecture for fertility community and the women were just amazing because it's like they have that synergistic connection and they were more connected than they probably realize, right? Because that's what we do. We may not even realize it. And I love that because it makes life more spontaneous and but also we're relational. We want connection.

Michelle (11:02)

Yeah, this is true, 100%.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

It's true. it, I feel like when you combine energies, just multiplies the vibe.

Kelly (11:38)

Yes. Yes.

Michelle (11:40)

And when you are going through, you know, I'm going to give you an example. have one of my patients and it happens sometimes where it takes a really long time for them to conceive and they struggle and they go through IVF and then that doesn't work. And I had one actually recently who after finally, after a year and then some of coming to me, she finally spontaneously got pregnant.

but she had connected with her spirit baby because she got these crazy signs that were insane. I'm going to eventually have her on the podcast once she gives birth because I want her to get through it and then have her come on so she could tell the story. but so I have people going through that, but like before you even get to that point,

It could be so daunting. And then you're just wondering why is this not happening? So I know for every individual, it's very unique, but I wanted to get your thoughts on that. Like why sometimes it gets derailed. It eventually happens, but why it can get derailed for so long. And is that something that connects with the spirit of baby's timing or what are your thoughts on that?

Kelly (12:52)

There's probably a lot of different answers for that one, right? Because everybody has their own connection and journey. And it is quite baffling when you're like, deepening and working and then all of a sudden, wow, what just happened? And I think it's pretty even more profound that she actually received communication and that she listened. Yeah, you gotta tell me when this episode comes because I'm so curious.

Michelle (12:55)

Yeah.

She got crazy communication. Some of the stuff was so insanely, it was crazy. She'd get bottle of wine. It was a name that she just knew that it was going to be the name and then she saw the name on TV and then she'd get a bottle of wine with that name and it's not a typical average name.

Kelly (13:29)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michelle (13:34)

And it was a girl's name and she knew it was going to be a girl based on that. And even when she got pregnant, she was like, I know it's going to be a girl. She told even the doctors like, whatever, I know it's going to be a girl. And it was a girl. It was just so insane and like really amazing. she kept seeing that before she even conceived. And she kept seeing that also when she had her failed retrievals and she was going to do another retrieval. And that's when she conceived naturally, just spontaneously. But it's

Kelly (13:41)

Bye.

Yeah.

I love that. Yeah.

Michelle (14:03)

know, it kind of defies the odds because you're like, well, I don't have any proof right now. And I can base it on my history and say, how's, how's this possible? How would this happen? But then it does.

Kelly (14:17)

This is where I'd say, yeah, this is where I'd say some things live in the realms of mysticism, right? Especially with baby. And I know I've seen stuff like this happen before where it's like the struggle, the struggle, the struggle, and then pushing with intervention and all of a sudden baby comes naturally. And I've seen this with a few different women over the years. And it's like, it blows them away and they're so confused and everything comes down to frequency.

Michelle (14:44)

Mm-hmm.

Kelly (14:44)

And when I use the term frequency, every single person is set in tone to a certain frequency. And we can even look at it as though we have a sound to us. And you know this because think about people that you meet and you're like, do not get along with them or they don't even see you because your frequencies are different radio stations. And there's nothing wrong with that. And babies are coming in, they are coming in more evolved.

Michelle (14:56)

Yeah. Yeah.

Right.

Kelly (15:08)

And I'm not saying that the mother or father are not evolved enough, but there's something in the energy field from the history, sometimes from ancestors and the past that is still in clearing. And sometimes it has nothing to do with the mother or the father in a sense, but also has to do with the baby. But also sometimes it's just one side of the lineage of the energy in the family without blaming anybody. There's a lot of parts to that. And I feel like

when we can build a communication practice that feels connected and sometimes babies will just come in as that. It's just like, I'm coming in, please listen to me. I'm gonna send you signs, I'm gonna like throw it in your face. And some people, by the way, you know this, some people would still ignore it, right? It's like, so I suspect a lot of the women that I meet, especially over the many, years, oftentimes miss the sign symbols.

Michelle (15:48)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Right. Yes.

Kelly (16:04)

that are coming through and they'll say something and I'm like, you literally just told me, I don't know if you realize that, that is your baby communicating. It was like, whoa, really? Because we're looking for something really big, right? And you can get those big signs, but you're gonna have to go deep into your multi-dimensional self. You're gonna have to really cut away this reality in a way that is gonna let your own energy grow and see the very many possibilities.

Michelle (16:34)

Yes, key.

Kelly (16:34)

And if you can't, it's okay. I have a friend who sometimes I talk to her and she's like, I don't know what you just said, right? So I'm like, yeah. I love her and it's just like, but it's so honest. Yeah. And this is the story of my life. I'm starting to get used to that because I just got into this massive rant yesterday with my husband and he's just like looking like, okay.

Michelle (16:46)

I can relate to that.

Kelly (17:02)

I was like, I know it doesn't make sense, but I was like, it's hard to put the energetic frequency vocabulary into this earth body and knowledge. It's almost like it feels a lot harder. I know many of you that are tuning in, are in communication more than you realize. Some will be very visual and feeling and auditory and others, it may be more dull. But what I do know is that babies do hear their parents. And so even if you're in...

I'm communicating one-sided or through a serenade, through song, poetry, through words, through journaling. Your baby hears you, 100%. And the whole part of trusting that is like, feel like babies are awakening parents to wake up to themselves, to know who they are. And so many women I see is like, especially when there's a miscarriage or later loss, right? You are literally being initiated into two worlds of energy. And there's a deep healing in that and it's...

It's not so scary. Yes, grief is just terrible and my heart goes out and we feel it, but something else is like cracking through. It's like people use the word bringing heaven to earth, right? How are we going to do that? How are we bringing the death space, the heaven space, the earth space all together in a way where there's a sense of understanding harmony and connection? Well, we are in many different ways and some would disagree, but you know, again,

the energy of the baby realms, not even babies, so much more advanced. They're in communication with us all the time and we just have to be open. I say listen, but I know listen is a challenging word, but it's true. It's like full on body-heart listening. How about that?

Michelle (18:41)

It's like receiving really. That's how I see it. It's kind of like being in a receptive place where I feel like sometimes you can get really used to speaking rather than receiving. But I'm talking about the subtleties too, you know, I think the subtleties are things that we don't often hear. And that's why I think meditation is so powerful because it gets us quiet enough to be able to receive, to almost kind of improve our antenna.

to receiving something outside of this world.

Kelly (19:09)

I feel like, yeah, I love that. The three things I wanna say when you said that came up in my mind is like, really to achieve really good kind of spirit baby, fertile energy connections, conception struggles, is number one is knowing yourself in meditation, but not doing it without two and three. So two I would say is, do you have a healer, a guide?

coach or somebody that can actually work in love space with you. It's not just, I'm going to give you these instructions. Like I'm holding energy and love and connection with you because the practitioners and the healers, if their frequency is more elevated, guess what? You're not going to come in their space unless your frequency wants to move into that. And the third one would be people. I feel like community togetherness. I feel like those three is like literally just the best equation.

for healing and being heard and moving into your psychic space because think about it. You meet, you know, I know you meet many women as I do where they feel like I call, I'll call it right now a psychic loneliness. They have these extra sensory perceptions. They feel like they're alone.

Michelle (20:16)

Mm-hmm.

Kelly (20:21)

what am I doing with it? I feel like I'm just, it's not worth anything. And then you see the light or at least I do in them, they just start sparking up like, my gosh, you see me, you hear me, you know me, I'm allowed to speak this way. And then it adds to the journey, adds to their up leveling of their own inner frequency of co-creation really with life and where you want it to, where they're wanting to go and build those next parts, you know?

Michelle (20:47)

Definitely. Well, I don't know if you know this, you probably know this, that I'm like, really love Joda Spence's work and I just came back from a retreat and every time I go, I learned something new. And one of the things the big thing that he really talks about is that

we hold a frequency, our emotions hold a frequency. And so when we have certain emotions, what we typically do is we wait for the outside world, which really is our manifestation of whatever is going on inside internally. When we wait for the outside world to shift so that our inside can feel better, but it's actually the opposite. It's kind of holding a frequency that we want or an emotion or a vibration that we want, and that will influence the outside world.

Kelly (21:33)

you

Michelle (21:33)

there's a lot of science that is showing us that our thoughts and our consciousness and our controlled consciousness and kind of like lasered perspective and perception can impact matter. And they're seeing that with there's a show that I was watching on Gaia. I forget what it was called. I think it was like the creative universe or something like that. But

Kelly (21:47)

Hmmmm

Michelle (21:56)

I remember the exact name. And they were talking about these professors at major universities talking about quantum physics and how we are so attached to an old paradigm of reality, which is way more materialist, but that is such a small perspective in that whenever we see something that's outside of that, lot of times scientists will dismiss that because it doesn't fall under their

Kelly (22:10)

you

Michelle (22:24)

perspective and what they have solidified as real. And so it becomes very dogmatic and we're not really seeing the truth of reality and the truth of reality does not just consist of the matter. It also consists of consciousness and the interplay between the two. And it's really fascinating. So basically our consciousness can impact the world in which we're seeing this,

Kelly (22:32)

Mm.

Michelle (22:51)

that our consciousness is perceiving. And not only that, this is starting to become realized in science. So this is what's crazy about it is you were talking about us reawakening, but it's not just within ourselves. We're actually starting to see this in the world.

Kelly (23:11)

And I think we're gonna start seeing more. I that there's gonna be more, I call it almost like a light switch. Like some of us will be in the trenches like waiting around like, what's happening? I always have to laugh like, what's happening? Like are people, yeah, yeah. So what's gonna happen with a lot of the sleepers? It's gonna be a light switch and so all of a sudden people are just gonna be on. It's some of the people that slow. I feel like for me it's like,

Michelle (23:23)

Yeah, there are the people that are sleeping when you're sleeping. You don't want to wake up. It's too comfortable.

Mm-hmm.

Kelly (23:39)

I felt, actually felt like an awakening at 15 years old. So I've had to go through the trenches for, along the trenches. I think more of the awakenings came in the 1950s even, but it's like, and then it's been a journey where it's like, am I allowed to speak this way in a dense world where they're like, no, I was like not allowed to speak this way. I was very shy, quiet, kept things very inward. And of course the, you know.

Michelle (23:42)

Mm-hmm. You were one of the first early risers.

Kelly (24:06)

as humanity keeps shifting, we have permission, right? It's like, all of a sudden we're allowed to own our own connections and we see it more and more, but it's gonna be like a light switch. But I love what you just shared. That's freaking amazing because when you said that, it made me think of like water. You know, people are doing these experiments again where they're like yelling at water and like, this like really, but like not just yelling at the water, but like giving your like dark energy to it and then connecting with, and you're just thinking.

Michelle (24:10)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, you could see the crystals.

intention.

Kelly (24:35)

my gosh, because when you think about we're made up of so much water, it's like, my gosh, like what is the impact on that? And you're right, there is the science spirit kind of, I always feel like they touch each other, but I still really feel they're supposed to be separate. They can intertwine with each other and science believes that they have to prove everything, but they can't, it's silly to me. And I feel like we're evolving out of that because everybody...

Michelle (24:39)

Yep. Yeah.

Yes.

Kelly (25:04)

has a different energetic perspective, but also we're in different frequencies. So we're not gonna have the same things. It's like medicine, it's like healing. Yeah.

Michelle (25:12)

But it is a form of communication where it's going to awaken people who are very, or identify as more science-based minded. And so that it does include that group of people.

And I think that that's important as well, because for a while what happened was in this documentary, that one guy was saying that people used to believe in transcendence and they believed in this kind of like a, this spiritual world until science came along and then dismissed it. And then they said, well, that can't be true. And so that it kind of like took us away from that spiritual aspect. And it was kind of looked down upon from, an educational perspective. And then.

Kelly (25:25)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Michelle (25:52)

Now they're starting to see it. Now, of course, the idea is, that when consciousness is able to impact reality, there is no way you're going to fully be able to dissect that. It's just not going to be possible because it's constantly ever flowing, ever changing as much as your imagination. So you can never really that down. However, it still gives way to somebody who's completely asleep and does not.

Kelly (26:02)

No.

Yes.

Michelle (26:19)

look at the spiritual aspect naturally as we do to open up to it. So kind of like in some weird way, I believe that it's meant to be because it is one way to get everybody on the same page. And then eventually, of course, really awakened.

Kelly (26:30)

Hmm.

Yeah, you say that I get this image of somebody wrapped up in their little blanket on the bed in their slumber. Like, hello, it's time to wake up. It's time to wake up. Let's shake things up. But some things do get really shaken up and other times you, you know, I've watched a lot of people involved and from afar and some more intimately. And it's quite fascinating because somebody that has future information at times or medical intuition, I want to fix everybody and heal them.

Michelle (26:46)

Yes. Yes. It's like bright light.

Mm-hmm.

Yes. I totally understand you. I get you. I feel the same way.

Kelly (27:09)

And then I have to step away and look and go, it's none of my business, right? Yeah. This is a good one. You tell yourself it's none of my business because we're not in charge of that. think that if we are evolving in our own space, then we ripple, right? And I know you know that it's like, that's the piece because I had to watch it. Yeah. Especially with family. Family is really hard, right? Family, you're just like,

Michelle (27:25)

Yes. I think that's the hardest part of doing our work or being healers. It really is. Yes, that's the hardest part. I think that's the biggest challenge is like when you know what you know and you know that it can benefit somebody and you could be like, here, I'll give you the key. I know exactly what you need, but you can't say that. You can't until they're ready or they ask because

Kelly (27:47)

It's very painful. I've even seen that with friends of friends and I'm like, just walk away Kelly, because you just, I'm like, can't, it's hard. We all have different levels of suffering. But then when you see people really suffering and you're like, ugh, like, yeah, it's like, okay. And then I have to go inward to my own suffering and go, what is that? What is the need?

Michelle (27:57)

Mm-hmm.

Kelly (28:10)

I know you want to help that person, but they are not there. They don't want that. And it's like, I just have to send that with love and just peace and not dwell on it. Right? Because it's like, that's all we can do.

Michelle (28:11)

Right, exactly.

Yep, 100%. It's like, you're just aware of it. It's almost like being like a neat freak or like a personal organizer for a living and then going to a really messy place and you're like, okay, I just have to let go of that right now and just let it be.

Kelly (28:32)

I wanna like, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and then ground into our own self, create our own boundary and then just be like, okay, it is what it is. But I think I always wonder if that will be ongoing in my reality because of who I am. Like I just see things through a different lens and I know that and I've accept that. And I used to think it was really bad. And I used to think that something was wrong with me. And now I've moved into deeper levels of self love that I...

Michelle (28:42)

Yeah.

Kelly (29:05)

perceive things differently and it's okay if people don't understand it. It doesn't really matter. I say as long as we're just connecting with love and respect and presence with each other because we're not gonna all understand our own individual journey, especially in conception. know, some struggle, everybody struggles in a different way or even birth loss. Everybody miscarries in a different way. Yes, there's like, there's a topic, there's this, that, but the impact.

Michelle (29:10)

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

That's true.

It's true.

Kelly (29:32)

is gonna be very unique for each person. And it is a real deep spiritual calling when there's this conception struggle or there's loss. If we can just begin more to nourish it, even in the medical environments, to look at it, and I'm sure you do, from that more whole space, but also like, okay, you're a physical body, but how are you feeling in your emotions? Like, our emotions dictate so much of our health, you know?

Michelle (29:54)

Yeah.

yeah, big time. And I think a big part of it is really not learning how to process them or having that shut down that aspect of it. know a lot of people, they go to the doctor, they miscarry in the hospital or the doctor says, just go home and go back to your life. And there's no, there's no in between. And I mean, their spouses aren't like,

skilled in therapy, like they don't know how to go through it either. And so it's kind of like, it's a really difficult thing because you're just like, now what, how do I process this? And part of it is really allowing yourself to digest emotions, just like you do food, you need to process it so that it doesn't sit and stagnate and then get stored in the body.

Kelly (30:42)

I've had women speaking about miscarriage for a moment, because this is a very big topic I can get into because it's a lot of my specialty accidentally has come through in my work over decade. And what I noticed is that the biggest thing when a woman goes into has a miscarriage, the first thing I want them to go into is tenderness and self-compassion. And I say, you don't have to think about what the next step is. There's no plans. And women that don't slow down, I see they have a major

Michelle (30:50)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kelly (31:12)

traumatic energetic wounds to heal. And it's okay, that may or may not happen, but it's more of like addressing, can you slow, because I, you know, a woman has lost, there's pain, there's feeling, I don't want to slow down, right? Maybe that's even it too. And everybody says I'm okay, I'm moving forward, but then I hear, you know, I've many times where, well my partner, especially male partner,

Michelle (31:14)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kelly (31:33)

They don't understand. I don't know if they feel anything or sometimes they feel so wrecked inside. They don't know how to deal with it. And I'm like, what is this what we're doing to the world of like, know, miscarriages of birth loss. There's even if it's the tiniest spec, there's a connection there and the body feels the separation of light. And there is no respect and women need to intuitively, right, wake up.

Michelle (31:38)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kelly (31:58)

to feel like they deserve that. But when we're in grief, we're not very clear when we're in literally the traumatic moment of grief. You're not like, okay, I'm gonna go, you know, do this, do that. I remember my recent deaths I've had to deal with. My friend was like, what do you need? And I said, I don't know. And she's like, well, let me do something. I'm like, I don't know. Because I was just so in the weeping.

Michelle (32:02)

That's true. Yeah. It's true.

Yeah.

Kelly (32:25)

the overwhelm, the visitation and the healing of it. And what she did was so communal, she brought me over homemade soup and bread. And I remember just not eating like at all because that's where I was in the beginning. And I'm just like, I guess I can try to eat. And it just lifted my spirits. I'm like, yeah, I need food. And just to have her there and just to share some memories and feelings. And it was like, this is what we're not taught, right? It's like, so.

Michelle (32:35)

love that.

that's really beautiful. Yeah.

It's true.

Kelly (32:55)

when there's a loss or birth loss, infant loss, child loss, and you're not in it, like maybe it's a friend or a family member, you have to step in. They're not gonna ask you anything. And I feel like, yeah.

Michelle (33:05)

Right, that's true. And just really the presence. I think the presence is the medicine. That's the comfort.

Kelly (33:12)

Yeah, and it's gonna happen. There's gonna be, know, loss is gonna happen, but it's again, I think addressing it. And I do have a whole chapter on miscarriage specific loss, but I also have something really cool in the book. I feel like I haven't shared this enough. I keep forgetting. There are seven QR code meditations in the book that you can actually click and listen live. Not live, but like it has music to it. And then they're made specifically through certain areas where one is pregnancy.

Michelle (33:30)

Ooh, I love that.

Kelly (33:41)

One is conception, I have a couples one you can use. I also have for fertility, like embryonic connection, miscarriage, I even have stillbirth, which is, know, later loss. I even have termination. There are specific meditations made that I feel like can just help provide that heart communication and just moving forward with spirit baby awareness. Yeah, I love that I was like, put that in there.

Michelle (34:02)

Mm, I love that.

Kelly (34:07)

And then it has a link too. if you can, you like, can't use the QR code. There's a link and it's like literally linked to my website and you'll have it forever and you can download them. And there are some favorites people are telling me right now, like, I really love this one. And I do it all the time. it's really fun to hear that because it was one of my favorite ones that I made like a long time ago. And it's interesting that people are so linked in and some are more visual feeling. It's a little bit of everything. Cause I know we have a little

you know, we all have different connections. And so that you get that in the book as well.

Michelle (34:36)

It's true.

my God, I love that. Well, you guys got to check out her book. It is amazing. It is notes from a spirit baby medium, everything you need to know about spirit baby communication. It is an amazing book. I've read it myself.

I got to have an insider's peak before it came out. And and I just know Kelly comes and does her work from the heart, like fully full on from the heart and from the light. And really anything that she talks about, is aligned with light. So I highly recommend you guys check out her book.

Kelly (34:58)

That's right.

Michelle (35:19)

I highly recommend you guys check out her and for people actually who do want to check you out, how can they find you?

Kelly (35:28)

So the best way to reach me is at newearthchildren.com or it's also spearbabymedium.com and my Instagram, a lot of people love connecting there is at Spear Baby Medium.

And you can, yeah, check it out. And there's even a book page so you can access the book. And it's offered through Amazon. It's offered through IngramSpark, which is global distribution Barnes and Noble. And you can get paperback or an ebook. And I just recently put on my website a PDF because I don't have ebooks. so if you're like, I want that PDF. There you go. I have everybody covered.

Michelle (35:59)

Mm-hmm.

Perfect. And she also has an amazing podcast.

Kelly (36:09)

Yes, thank you Spirit Baby Radio, which I'm coming up to 200. Yay. Thank you. Yay.

Michelle (36:13)

Amazing. Congrats and congrats on the book and always amazing talking to you. And I'm so happy you got to come on today and thank you for joining us today.

Kelly (36:27)

Yes, as always, Michelle, I love you. Thank you for having me. It's always fun. And I'm very excited to keep sharing the beautiful work, similar to what you do, bringing in that deep level of consciousness, healing. And I know you bring spirit baby energies into your space too. Thank you.

Michelle (36:44)

Awesome. you.

EP 317 Navigating Sensitivity on the Fertility Journey | Dr. Amelia Kelley

In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Dr. Amelia Kelley @drameliakelley , a trauma-informed therapist, discusses her journey and insights into high sensitivity, coping mechanisms, and the impact of trauma on mental health. She explores the differences between empathy and compassion, the importance of understanding one's nervous system, and shares her personal fertility journey, highlighting the integration of holistic approaches such as acupuncture and herbal medicine. In this conversation, Dr. Amelia Kelley and Michelle explore the complexities of pregnancy loss, trauma, and the role of the nervous system in fertility. They discuss the importance of letting go of control and embracing spirituality, as well as the dynamics of being a highly sensitive person (HSP). The conversation delves into the benefits of body awareness and how it can aid in healing, while also addressing the challenges HSPs face in relationships and daily life. Ultimately, they highlight the adaptive nature of high sensitivity and its prevalence in the population, encouraging listeners to embrace their sensitivity as a gift rather than a burden.

Takeaways

• Coping skills should be viewed as a lifestyle.

• High sensitivity is a genetic trait, not a flaw.

• Empathy can have negative health effects.

• Highly sensitive people require more alone time for regulation.

• Generational trauma can impact reproductive health.

• Understanding one's nervous system is crucial for coping.

• Holistic approaches can aid in fertility journeys.

• Stress and nervous system balance are crucial for fertility.

• Highly sensitive people (HSPs) experience the world differently.

• Body awareness can enhance healing processes.

• HSPs often respond more positively to therapeutic interventions.

• High sensitivity is an adaptive trait found in many individuals.

• Embracing sensitivity can lead to greater self-awareness and compassion.

Guest Bio:

Dr. Amelia Kelley is a trauma-informed therapist, author, co-host of The Sensitivity Doctor's Podcast, researcher, and certified meditation and yoga instructor. Her specialties include art therapy, internal family systems (IFS), EMDR, and brainspotting. Her work focuses on women’s issues, empowering survivors of abuse and relationship trauma, highly sensitive persons, motivation, healthy living, and adult ADHD. 

She is currently a psychology professor at Yorkville University and a nationally recognized relationship expert featured on SiriusXM Doctor Radio’s The Psychiatry Show as well as NPR’s The Measure of Everyday Life. Her private practice is part of the Traumatic Stress Research Consortium at the Kinsey Institute. 

She is the author of Powered by ADHD: Strategies and Exercises for Women to Harness their Untapped Gifts (whichhas a corresponding online support group!), Gaslighting Recovery for Women: The Complete Guide to Recognizing Manipulation and Achieving Freedom from Emotional Abuse, coauthor of What I Wish I Knew: Surviving and Thriving After an Abusive Relationship, as well as Surviving Suicidal Ideation: From Therapy to Spirituality and the Lived Experience, and a contributing author for Psychology Today, ADDitude Magazine, as well as Highly Sensitive Refuge, the world’s largest blog for HSPs. Her work has been featured in Teen Vogue, Yahoo News, Lifehacker, Well + Good and Insider.

You can find out more about her work at https://www.ameliakelley.com.

Follow her on Instagram @drameliakelley

https://www.instagram.com/drameliakelley/

https://www.facebook.com/DrAmeliaKelley

https://www.linkedin.com/in/drameliakelley/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-your-corner

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast Amelia.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (00:02)

Thank you for having me. It's good to see you again.

Michelle (00:04)

It's so good to see you. So Amelia's had me on her podcast, the sensitivity doctors in the past, and I would love for you to share your background. I am really interested and very intrigued by what you do because it's something that we spoke about. I totally relate to. I love the fact that you've authored so many books and have such an interesting background. So I would love to have the.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (00:26)

Hehehe

Michelle (00:30)

audience hear you.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (00:32)

Sure. Well, I'm currently in my office. So I'm a trauma informed therapist, professor, and podcaster, which is how you and I met. And I've been in the field for 20 years now. I primarily work with trauma of various forms, but a lot of it is interpersonal trauma, relationship trauma, some issues with sexual abuse, some instances where I also work with per...

a lot of first responders, so cops, doctors, and also folks from the military. So I'd say that my work is kind of an intersection. I sometimes call myself an integrative therapist because just before our session, I was doing a yoga therapy session. I do everything from EMDR, brain spotting, yoga therapy, art therapy is actually my background, sand play therapy.

Michelle (01:02)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (01:27)

I'm so into the brain too. I mean, I'm not, I would not say that my practice is comprehensive in neurofeedback. We do some minor interventions, but I love referring my clients to practitioners in the area to make sure that their brain health is on par too. And I also love referring to Carolina Clinic of Natural Medicine is my favorite in the area, but they do things like acupuncture and.

Michelle (01:40)

Hmm.

Mm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (01:54)

kind of holistic health, which I know really aligns with what you do. So, yeah.

Michelle (01:59)

it's interesting because as you start to do anything, you start to find out how many different layers and different ways and methodologies that certain people respond to better than others. there's just so many different methods. And I think that some people just respond better to some.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (02:10)

Right.

Right.

yeah. I think that's a great thing about coping skills. First and foremost, I love the idea of obliterating this idea that a coping skill is like work or that it's something that you only do when you're struggling. I think it's more of a lifestyle. And everyone is going to respond differently. Like I know I personally...

Michelle (02:35)

Yes.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (02:41)

water is very big for me. Like if I'm really stressed or I'm dysregulated, getting in hot water or cold water is very regulating for my nervous system. Whereas I have clients who the last thing they want to do when they're stressed or dysregulated is shower or get in water. It's actually one of the first things that they stop wanting to do.

Michelle (02:51)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:04)

So it's so interesting seeing how we all respond differently, I think, in our own unique nervous system when we're under stress.

Michelle (03:11)

Yeah, definitely. I find that also with my patients. mean, some people, be much more open to like things like meditation, other people, there's other ways to self soothing, which I call it, because ultimately, that's really what it is. So yeah, it definitely isn't work. sounds like work.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:20)

Mm

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Michelle (03:30)

but it's not work. think the biggest work is really the strategy and kind of figuring it out. But ultimately it's really there to soothe you at times that you feel overwhelmed.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:35)

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more.

Michelle (03:44)

So let's talk about the sensitive person because I've always felt that that was something that I can describe myself as when I was younger. It was something that I felt I found myself more overwhelmed by noises, by certain people's energy than other people. And people would just be like, you're too sensitive or you focus on things too much. And

Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:52)

Mm

Okay.

Michelle (04:08)

It was something that I realized, as I met other people like me. I was like, wait, this is kind of a thing. And then when I learned about it, that it really is a thing, I found it really interesting. And it also, I found it very comforting. So it's like, okay, I'm like, I'm not abnormal. Like this isn't crazy. Yeah. So I would love for you to talk about that. So I feel like a lot of people can relate.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:14)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right, Mm-hmm.

Definitely, and I know my aha moment was a big deal to me. It was years ago now. I stumbled upon Dr. Elaine Aaron, who is kind of the pioneer of some of the modern research on high sensitivity on her documentary, Sensitive, the Untold Story.

And it was one of those light bulb aha moments that made so much of my life make sense. Interestingly though, when I dug a little deeper, she was not the of the originator of this. It was actually research done in the 80s on babies and their responses to different stimuli. Things like they had...

Michelle (04:59)

you

Mm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (05:17)

auditory stimulation with like a creepy face making sound. had light stimulation, physical stimulation. And what they found was that the babies who were more reactive, they were calling high reactive babies, you know, which down the road became high sensitivity. But the really interesting thing is that the researchers went and followed up with these babies who are now in their midlife, you know, they're in their

I'd say probably 40s at this point, 30s and 40s. And they're finding that those high reactive babies still are more reactive adults. And so this doesn't mean someone who's highly emotional or can't control their temper when we think of reactivity. It's more, what is your reaction to sensory input? And certain brains, it is genetic.

Michelle (06:07)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:10)

So it's a predisposition. It is a genetic trait. It is not a diagnosis. It is not something to fix. It is rather something to learn from and grow with and manage and live life in that way. And so it's highly genetic. And for that reason, I'm not surprised I have kids who are definitely highly sensitive. And high sensitivity can express in so many different ways. It can look like

Michelle (06:10)

you

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:39)

hypersensitivity to medication, sensitivity to light, to sound, to being rushed to other people's emotions. That's a big part. The empathy piece is very strong. I think it's really important to understand the difference between empathy and compassion when we consider highly sensitive people. you, like when I say that, does that make sense to you? Do you want me to unpack that?

Michelle (06:52)

Mm-hmm.

It does. mean, so what I'm perceiving in that is that empathy is kind of like almost giving more of your own personal energy to something versus just feeling compassion and understanding that another person's emotions or perspectives without almost taking it on. I'm not sure if I'm on or not.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:08)

Mm-hmm.

Well, mean, I think that's we can all define it differently, but I guess if I was going to scientifically define compassion and empathy. So empathy is our ability to feel what someone else is feeling. We all tend to know that definition. However, the interesting thing is that empathy has a negative impact on your immune health and it increases inflammation. Right. And so when we consider the fact that highly sensitive people

Michelle (07:34)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Well, that's interesting.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:56)

have more active mirror neurons, which means the areas of their brain designed to plan social interactions, problem solving around social interactions, and even something as simple as, as a highly sensitive person, one of my ways to decompress is to watch like trashy reality TV at night. And so I will find myself as I'm watching these dating shows, smiling with the contestants.

Michelle (08:15)

Yeah

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (08:23)

or frowning with them. Sometimes I kind of laugh when I catch myself doing it. As a highly sensitive person, those areas of the brain are so much more active. And so it does make us have higher levels of empathy. But when you consider the fact that that can negatively impact your body, if you don't have enough boundaries around them, empathy is pro-social. It helps us get along, but also too much can be draining.

Michelle (08:32)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (08:50)

And so compassion is actually kind of the anecdote to empathy because compassion is centered around the desire to act or help. And so this, when we think of self-compassion, the act of speaking to yourself kindly is an act. So you empathize for yourself, I feel bad today because I made a mistake. Just thinking of an example. The compassion is,

Michelle (08:50)

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:18)

I'm going to choose to speak to myself kindly and with love because that will be curative for me. Whereas if you stay in an empathy response, you just continue to feel bad about whatever mistake you made, right? And so for highly sensitive people, it's exponentially important to lean into compassion and we can't all go out and save the world all the time. So sometimes this looks like well-wishing meditation.

Michelle (09:24)

Done it.

Got it.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:46)

processing with other like-minded people, those can be ways to express compassion that doesn't all have to be going out. And I remember, do you remember the movie Free Willy?

Michelle (09:58)

yeah, but I don't remember if I saw it or I don't remember the actual movie. wait, though. It was the one with the whale, right? Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:06)

Right, it was fiction, obviously, but as an HSP or an HSC at the time, a highly sensitive child, when that movie was over, I was destroyed at the thought of all these whales in the world who need help. And so my gracious parents who encouraged my sensitivity helped me find an organization where could adopt a whale. So it's like, and I mean, who knows what's happening. We probably paid $20 and...

Michelle (10:29)

that's cute.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:34)

I've adopted a whale, who knows, but it was the act of taking my empathy response and putting it into action with compassion that was curative for my little highly sensitive child heart.

Michelle (10:34)

Yeah.

Hmm.

That's beautiful. actually really love that. And it also makes you feel like there's more purpose in the feelings that you're having. You're kind of taking the feelings and creating purpose with it.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:57)

Absolutely. That's such a way of putting it.

Michelle (11:01)

And one thing too, that I was thinking about when you were talking about being highly sensitive, which I could tell you right now, I 100 % am self-diagnosed. The nervous system, I think to myself about the nervous system and possibly that having something to do with it, just having a more heightened sensitive nervous system.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:09)

Mm-hmm

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (11:22)

Besides obviously the antidote and kind of like using or acting or doing, to translate the empathy, but as one part of regulating the nervous system, learning to manage the nervous system, doing things like you said, like when you get home, take a shower, do something that really connects with your nervous system, I feel like is a really great tool. And figuring out what that is, is that something that you often look into?

Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:49)

Absolutely. Because if you think about just a handful of the questions that I was posing that help you identify if you're highly sensitive, a lot of them have to do with nervous system response. highly sensitives are more responsive to caffeine, drugs and alcohol, pain tolerance, hunger cues even, are more, you know, felt more intensely. So with HSPs, the nervous system, specifically the limbic

system is more active. And this is something that can be seen on actual scans of HSP brains. It is. It's wild. so I was having a really interesting conversation with Michael Allison, who is one of the instructors for the Polyvagal Institute. And he was talking about, I don't think if he really fully bought into the HSP thing, I think he sees everything through the Polyvagal world.

Michelle (12:20)

Mm-hmm.

That's so interesting.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:48)

And which I totally appreciate. There's different ways to look at our nervous systems. But he said something when we were talking about highly sensitive that really struck a chord to your point about the nervous system. He was saying when our nervous system alerts danger and for him that means the vagal break is off and the vagus nerve is overactive, the heart rate is up, fight flight. When we're not feeling safe.

It's usually because we're attending to something we think we need to attend to because it's out of sorts. And so the highly sensitive person, a look on your face could alert danger to me. Like someone seeming off or upset or concerned could signal that. And so for the highly sensitive person,

Michelle (13:23)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:42)

They need more time and research has shown up to two hours of unstructured alone time per day is most quote prescribed for highly sensitive. And so the reason being is that our baseline is higher all the time. And so we need more things to regulate the nervous system so that sounds and things and emotions aren't pulling us out of our safety zone so quickly.

Michelle (13:49)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

my God, that makes sense on so many levels. I always felt like I needed, I need alone time. Like after a while, I just need to be by myself. need quiet. I need peace. And I totally understand what you're saying. And then also what's interesting is I remember when I was younger, always being afraid, like if somebody was mad at me or like, I would kind of feel a tone of like, my God, are they mad at me? And I get like really upset. And now I had to like learn to

Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:19)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Michelle (14:42)

just be like, okay, it's not that big of a deal. Maybe they were having a bad day, you know, sort of speak to myself on that, but that makes sense. And then I noticed that with my daughter, if sometimes I'll be busy and I won't respond with like a, you know, a full response, I'll be like, okay, okay, we'll talk later or whatever. Are you mad at me? And I always tell her, believe me, I would tell you I'm pretty clear about like what I'm happy about and not happy, you know.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:52)

Mmm.

Hmm.

Right.

Michelle (15:07)

And, but it's interesting. She'll kind of read between the lines with me. And she's like me, she just took after me. So it's kind of, yeah, so she's 19.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:12)

Mm

How old is she, I ask? OK, so she's older. I was going to say, I know a great workbook, but it's for younger kids. yeah, she definitely, especially if you are too, it wouldn't surprise me that she would also be highly sensitive because it is so genetic.

Michelle (15:23)

Yeah.

And she got like that more as she got older when she went to college than even before, for some reason. I don't know if maybe because she has a lot more going on or, she's starting to regulate on a different level, her nervous system. Cause I think that coming from home, things shift and change.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:39)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Totally. mean, think it's research has shown that some high sensitivity traits, you know, can be very present in childhood, but then there's other different types of traits that become more expressed later in life. But

Michelle (16:04)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:06)

I also beg to say, let's look at the external factors. You look at someone who is a highly sensitive child who didn't have to raise children, work a job, manage a home. So when you just keep adding more to your exactly, that can make those traits become more expressed too, I believe.

Michelle (16:16)

Yeah, right.

Yep, responsibility. Yeah, for sure.

So I want to actually take this into your own journey, because I know you've had your fertility journey, because a lot of listeners, are going through the fertility journey. And I know a lot of people just based on my own clients and patients that are very sensitive and highly sensitive as well.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:38)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (16:48)

I work a lot with them on, I don't know if you've ever heard of the NADA protocol. It's really good for PTSD. NADA, it's used, it's, yeah, yeah. So NADA, and it's a protocol that they use on the ears. it's like a, it's a series of ear points that we use like altogether.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:54)

No. I love learning new things. Tell me. NADA. I have nothing to write on. Okay.

Michelle (17:12)

And it works on regulating the nervous system. And it actually works amazing on it's even had published studies on working with vets, people with PTSD, like really major PTSD. Yeah. Yeah, I know. It's, it's really, really interesting. And, and also interestingly enough,

Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:23)

I need a pen. Let me just grab one.

Do you use the mustard seeds or is it actual needles?

Michelle (17:33)

So you could use the seeds. I use needles. I use needles. then some people, no, no, they're not mustard seeds, but they're seeds. And then some of the studies that were published, I think they even added electric stimulation. And what's interesting is it's not just really great for

Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:36)

They're probably not called mustard seeds. I forgot what are they actually.

Mm-hmm.

cool.

Thank

Michelle (17:51)

PTSD, but it's also really good for addiction. And interesting, if you think about the two, like what do they have in common? They're kind of like, it runs, they run on a loop. You know, it's this repeated either thoughts or behaviors. And it seems to kind of have that in common. Obviously it's two different things, but sometimes can cross over.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:56)

wow.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I love that. It's funny. It looks like you're on my podcast right now. So I'm like, let me take notes on what you're saying. You're so smart and knowledgeable in these areas. I love it. I will definitely check that out. I would be so curious if that's something that there are, like I said, a lot of veterans and addicts that I work with. And so I'm definitely going to look into that.

Michelle (18:16)

So.

No, no, I know. It will...

I feel the same about you. it makes for a great conversation.

Yeah, definitely look into the studies. I think that that's, seeing the studies and seeing the numbers really makes a difference. And so that aspect of it is amazing. And also Joe dispense does work a lot of what he does helps tons of people with PTSD, like, they do scans and study the brains. It's pretty impactful. Yeah. Yeah. So back to you though, I would love to talk to you about how you feel, your nervous system.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:47)

Mm-hmm.

That's really neat.

Michelle (19:10)

Like how were you able to figure out a way to balance yourself through the journey, knowing what you know, and how do you think it's impacted you on that nervous system level and like the trauma, because I know that it can be very traumatic, even though people don't often talk about it like that. It should be, it should be highlighted in that way so that more people have awareness around it because it really is a very difficult process.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:16)

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (19:37)

has even been compared to a cancer diagnosis. It's really significant.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:41)

Wow. Well, and I actually have something about my story that integrates the two. So I think when I really look now and I understand my nervous system better, I think that the generational trauma that I was carrying with me into my reproductive years that I didn't understand that I didn't understand my high sensitivity. I didn't have a name for it. I didn't realize that that's what that was. I just thought.

I just felt too much all the time. What I think that was doing was that when I was ready to try to start having a family is that I had been in flight mode. And when people think of flight mode, they think of like running the coop. I had been in flight mode being overly productive. And I laugh because I'm still overly productive, but it's in a different energy now. It's in a completely different energy than it was then. But.

Michelle (20:34)

Yeah.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:39)

This flight mode, think what it was doing is it was putting my nervous system in a state, like you said on my podcast, where it was never able to rest. It was never able to replenish. so my cycle was totally dysregulated. I ended up, I don't know how detailed you want me to get, but I'm happy to share. OK, OK. So I started off, we had tried to get pregnant for a couple of years and it wasn't working. And at the time, I think about it,

Michelle (20:58)

you can get as detailed as you need.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:09)

I was in my doctoral program. I was working at a women's clinic and the methadone clinic and trying to start my practice all at the same time and just live life and be like a normal adult. And so we went the route of Western medicine at first. I love my doctor and he worked with me through the whole journey, but we tried Clomid and I got pregnant. But I think now that I know what I know about egg quality, thank you, Rebecca Fett. She's amazing.

Michelle (21:19)

Bye.

Yeah, she's phenomenal. I know I've tried, but she like, she wasn't really doing them. Maybe she is now, but let me know if you get her. She's great. Yes.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:40)

my gosh, I need to get her on my podcast. Let's like.

We're going to like, we'll just go not tap, tap, tap. Come on. now that I understand what I know now about egg quality, I think that the clomid forced an egg that really wasn't ready to be fertilized. And so we miscarried that baby. And that was the first miscarriage and definitely the most shocking and painful miscarriage. From there, did my, one of my, I think healthier

trauma coping mechanisms is research. And so I just dug in and I created this kind of like wellness plan for my husband and I had like printouts. What I didn't realize is that I was basically creating what Rebecca Fett recommends without realizing what in the world I was doing. And so I had us on a laundry list of vitamins and supplements and all these things. We got pregnant again, very.

Michelle (22:33)

and

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (22:45)

very luckily with our daughter, who is now nine. And then that was the end of that. was like, OK, that went OK. Maybe it was just like that first miscarriage. Lots of people have it, statistically speaking. Then we were trying for our second child. And I feel like that's when I really got introduced to the world that you're in, which is the Chinese herbal medicine and acupuncture, because we

I think I had already started working with my acupunctures at that time. again, we were having a hard time getting pregnant. And so they put me on like the most disgusting tea, but it was some sort of tea regimen and these herbs. And I was doing really cool acupuncture to your point with like the little electrodes and all of that. And I did get pregnant again, but that time ended up being a molar pregnancy.

Michelle (23:26)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:42)

which you know what those are assume or I don't know if you're listeners.

Michelle (23:46)

Yes, I remember learning about it. haven't had any of my patients have that, but I remember learning about it actually in school.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:54)

Right. So the trauma of the first miscarriage was, would almost call that like acute trauma, whereas the trauma with the molar pregnancy. So a molar pregnancy, for anyone listening who doesn't know, is when the sperm and the egg join and the DNA markers are not turned on. So no actual baby starts forming, but a mass starts to form. And your body thinks you're pregnant, and so it spikes your HCG actually above kind of average levels.

I thought I was pregnant with twins. was so sick. So I go in and I'm, I want to say eight, seven, eight weeks at that point that I thought and they scanned and there's no baby, which felt like a miscarriage, but it wasn't. But what happened after it was that I still had to do a DNC and then I had to do monthly HCG tests to make sure that my levels were dropping because if your levels of HCG go up at any point, have to

Michelle (24:26)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:52)

do chemo. So this was this chronic six month period where we couldn't try again. And every month I was going in afraid for my health.

Michelle (25:00)

Mm-hmm.

my gosh.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:05)

Right. So that was a totally different type of trauma. And then we got pregnant again. And that one we lost at 10 weeks because it was a little boy with downs. And then we finally got pregnant with our son that we have now. But I would say during that journey of those miscarriages, that was when I really dug deep into

Things like I was saying, like really taking everything serious with Chinese herbalism, looking at what I was putting in my body, looking at what was around me, my stress level, mean, meditation, really anything I could to balance my nervous system. And to your point, I think the nervous system played a role finally in us getting pregnant with our son because I think when you were on my podcast, I told you that

Michelle (25:47)

Yeah.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:58)

I was doing all these things, it wasn't working, and then finally I did that, quite essential, fine, I give up. I'm not doing this anymore. I went to my acupuncturist and I said, just do stress this time. Don't do any of the fertility treatments, please. I just don't want to even think about it anymore. And then it's so obnoxious to say, but three weeks later we got pregnant.

Michelle (26:04)

Mm-hmm.

It's not, it is, it's something that I'm, well, I'm not just, know why you're saying that because people are like, what the heck? Like, it's kind of like the just relax kind of thing. saying just relax is not helpful. That's why people are like, okay, well then how, you know, that's the how, like, how do I relax? so actually let's talk about that. Cause that, that is a big thing. That's a big thing.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:32)

Right, right.

Right. Well, I I let go of the outcome. Yeah, I think for me, it was letting go of the outcome. And I think that allowed my nervous system to get back to a safer baseline. To your point about asking about high sensitivity, I think what used to be the stress was work and school. The stressor became the goal.

Michelle (26:52)

Yeah.

Yes. You know, I just hadn't, an aha, but if you want to continue, I did, I just had an aha. It's like you're taking on the responsibility of the goal. You think that it's all up to you and you're taking that weight on your shoulders. And I think that that's what it is is, and, I'm kind of thinking back cause I had Dr. Lisa Miller. I don't know if you've heard of her. She's yeah, she's amazing. You would love her. And I think she would be great on your podcast. So put her down as a

Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:06)

Which, what? Ooh, no, I wanna hear it.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

I've heard that name.

and a jotter down.

Michelle (27:32)

as an option or somebody. She went through the fertility journey, but separately from that, she's also a professor in Columbia. I think you would love talking to her because you're a professor as well. And she's a psychotherapist and she is studying spirituality in the brain.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:41)

good. Yeah.

that's interesting. Okay.

Michelle (27:50)

It's fascinating. And so they found looking at, scans of brains and how they're functioning, where they're lit up, that spiritual people who are spiritual have different brains, their brains look different. And this could be the same brain of somebody who used to not be spiritual and then became spiritual. It doesn't matter. And what's interesting is, so this is my, as you were talking, not to interrupt, hopefully you're trained a thought, but

Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:05)

Interesting.

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (28:18)

can come at life taking on the responsibility of every single part of our outcome and like fully micromanaging ourselves and bearing that weight or when we're spiritual, that means that we believe in a higher power or some kind of higher intelligence. We're relying on something else and not carrying all the weight. So we're just basically giving our intention out there, but, but also feeling safe enough. Like you said, safe, word safe.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:28)

Thank

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Michelle (28:46)

to let go. So that was kind of my heart just came out.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:48)

Hmm, absolutely. No, I love it. mean, the connection makes so much sense because and it kind of makes me think of why it doesn't have to be quote religion that someone leans into. It doesn't. It can literally be if you're someone listening who is an atheist and staunchly does not believe in a higher power, it could be energy. I mean, we can't there's no denying scientifically there's energy. mean, even

Michelle (29:01)

Mm-hmm. No, no, it doesn't have to be religion.

Right?

True.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:18)

plants have been proven to grow better when we speak to them because of the energy and probably the carbon monoxide, but like you're a carbon dioxide, but not monoxide. I'm not breathing carbon monoxide, but you can't deny energy. even if someone is not religious or I would say, I would want to ask her actually, does this hold true for someone who's not quote spiritual, but

Michelle (29:25)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, dioxide. Totally. understood. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:44)

who gives up things to the idea of energy. I want to ask her that.

Michelle (29:48)

That's a great question. when you do have her on, let me know, because I'll be listening to the podcast.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:53)

for sure. For sure. Thanks for the tip for the, I'll definitely check her out and reach out.

Michelle (29:57)

Yeah, but it's fascinating. And I think to myself, I think that that might be that trusting in something else, trusting in an outcome or kind of releasing or relinquishing that burden and that responsibility. And that I guess that that was the aha is like taking on that responsibility of really trying to, take on the outcome, like as if you really have all of the responsibility and how it turns out and that burden and that feeling and that blame.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:06)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Now I'm having an aha. Well, yes, I'm having an aha because high sensitivity. So I was talking about the mirror neurons earlier and the empathy overload with highly sensitives. Highly sensitive people, we do tend to naturally take on the responsibility of other people's emotions. And we also, even one of the questions that Dr. Aaron poses is,

Michelle (30:29)

Tell me. This is great. We bounce off each other really well.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:54)

Do you know how to make people comfortable in a room? Like things like changing the lighting and the volume and the temperature in the room. I think even as a highly sensitive person, we kind of naturally take on the responsibility of the environment. And that's why some HSPs who are not high sensation seekers, who are just, you know, kind of more of the traditional introverted expression of it, they really get overwhelmed in social settings and they don't love hosting.

Michelle (31:19)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:23)

because it's too much to micromanage. I'm a high sensation seeking HSP, so I do enjoy hosting and having people over at my home. However, the hours leading up to the event, I need quiet and calm. I've got like a hairpin trigger nervous system leading up to inviting people in my space, even though I love it. It's like this weird.

Michelle (31:24)

you

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:52)

dichotomy. yeah, letting go of responsibility, think, releases the nervous system of a highly sensitive person as well.

Michelle (32:00)

Yeah. And it's so interesting that you're saying that because like, I look back at my childhood, I was a really good imitator. And that just makes sense because you pick up on the little details of people's behavior and energy and you mirror that like literally.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:09)

Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm so curious and envious because I'm terrible at accents. Like, terrible. Really? Mm-hmm.

Michelle (32:26)

Yeah, I used to, I would do it even when I wasn't trying. I would start to take on like, I would do it on purpose and when I wasn't trying, like I would just pick up on like certain behaviors or certain like tones and things. And I would kind of like take on like the energy of friends that would have very specific ways of talking. And I would almost be like, like I would catch myself. like, that's weird. I don't want to do that.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:35)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

You're like, I don't want to look like I'm really imitating them. This might get awkward.

Michelle (32:55)

For sure. But it's just so fascinating. and then you're talking also highly sensitive persons that they could also have glucose sensitivity. You were saying you were talking about the physical sensitivity, right? Like that sometimes it could be allergies or other things and it's not just emotional.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:06)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm. Well, so if you think about, it's not that they're going to have more unstable blood sugar from a technical medical stance. It's that the highly sensitive nervous system can sense peaks and valleys more than someone who is not highly sensitive. So they might respond more to hunger cues and may feel more

Michelle (33:29)

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:39)

panic or anxiety or stress in the state of hunger. So they may be more likely to be the person that reaches for something to re-stabilize glucose. But then you can see how depending on someone's metabolic health, that might not fit well into whatever their health goals are. So I think of my non- he's actually quite highly sensitive now, but my husband- I'm going grab water.

Michelle (33:43)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Got it.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:08)

Sorry. My husband, who is a little bit less sensitive and has a more stable metabolic system, when he's hungry, it doesn't cause as much distress.

Michelle (34:08)

Sure.

Got it.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:20)

If that makes sense.

Michelle (34:21)

a body awareness thing. because HSPs are probably much more aware of how their bodies feel because a, immediately feel it. And then that impacts their emotions or how they feel mentally. Cause a lot of emotions get processed and they're really felt in the body. think, a lot of times people don't realize that it's why somatic.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:39)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (34:43)

work can be so beneficial. Have you looked into somatic work?

Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:48)

I do offer some forms of somatic work. I am not a somatic-experiencing practitioner. That takes a full, it's almost like a whole separate degree. But I actually find what you're saying very important to highlight, too, because HSPs, while anyone listening might think, goodness, OK, I'm highly sensitive. Now what? Does this just mean that I'm in for it? Everything's going to be harder?

Michelle (34:57)

wow.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:14)

The good thing, the hopeful thing is that HSPs also respond more to positives. So they feel more positive sensation from things like a massage or acupuncture or homeopathy or different aromatherapies. They're really going to benefit from it. I think that's why

Michelle (35:20)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:39)

My HSPs tend to stay in therapy longer. So HSPs are kind of a stronger ratio in therapy, not only because the world can feel more traumatizing at some points for HSPs, but because they just get so much out of it. I think it also leads to things like food can taste even better. Music can sound even more beautiful. Movies can be even more moving. So there's these...

Michelle (35:58)

Mm-hmm.

There's benefits.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:09)

Yeah, there's this, I wouldn't give it up. I wouldn't want to be less sensitive just because it would make me a little bit less likely to reach for a snack in the afternoon. So there's this yin and yang to it.

Michelle (36:14)

brain.

Yes.

For sure. I actually like just from my own journey based on that, what I offer a lot of my patients and I always talk to them about it when I perceive that they get overwhelmed by stimulation. That was really how I saw it. I would say that it's not about changing that it's a gift actually, cause it could also teach you to be very aware of other people's feelings and

Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:40)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right.

Michelle (36:50)

And that can be a great thing for healers, to be honest, because you're a lot more likely to be able to understand the people that you're working with. It's not about changing. It's more about managing, kind of figuring out ways to stabilize so that it works for you.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:53)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right.

Absolutely. And I think that's the whole key of identifying whether or not you're one and why it's important. I've had clients who come in with a laundry list of diagnoses from other practitioners, usually because what's going on is trauma and it's being misdiagnosed as many other things, just my clinical opinion. But when I say maybe you're also highly sensitive, sometimes they just throw their arms up like another thing. And it's like, no, no.

Michelle (37:36)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (37:37)

This is a key. This is a huge level of insight that can inform everything from your fertility journey for people listening, from trauma, from navigating. Anytime something stands in your way of getting where you want to be, if you know, well, I'm highly sensitive, so I will be more likely to succeed at this thing or accomplish this thing or feel better about this thing if I take my sensitivity into account.

Michelle (38:01)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:07)

Perfect example, I had a very heavy day yesterday. had, I think, eight clients, a podcast, an interview, and a class. It was too much. It was a heavy, heavy day. I get home and my husband had managed to fix the voice-changing microphone toy that my kids have that had been broken that I wasn't rushing to fix. so I come in the house. They run to me. They're so excited to see me, so I'm excited to see them.

Michelle (38:17)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ha ha ha!

Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:35)

and then they start in on this microphone. The last thing I wanted was to hear that microphone. But I know I didn't want to ruin their fun. So I know about me that I am going to be sensitive to sound when I'm overstimulated. So I went into my bag. I got my loop earbuds. If no one's ever heard of them, they're great for dampening noise around you, but you can still hear people. Popped my earbuds in. I didn't feel like I had to mask the issue of being sensitive to the noise.

Michelle (38:56)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:03)

My family knows this about me. It wasn't anything against my kids. It was just, I'm going to pop these in so you can still have fun, but I can feel peaceful. And that's, think, a compassionate way to care for yourself is when you know these things about yourself, you can do things to help you still integrate and feel happy and peaceful in your life, but not have to push away what really is true.

Michelle (39:17)

Mm-hmm.

I love that. actually really love that. It actually, the idea of highly sensitive, I don't mind it. Although I do think that there's definitely a lot of labels. I don't see this as one because the reason why I'm saying this, it reminds me of human design where you find out your strengths and sensitivities.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:42)

Yes.

Michelle (39:47)

and I think that once you know those, so it's not like a disorder, you know, cause we, think we hear all these different labels. think of it as like all these disorders. It's not no. And so that's the thing with this. I feel like it brings a lot of clarity. I, as a sensitive person

Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:54)

Mm-hmm. It's not even a diagnosis.

Michelle (40:05)

it really makes me understand myself more and manage it more. Just like you said, and I think that that is the key rather than getting frustrated with my husband who likes to really over explain. And sometimes I'm like, okay, my brain is like just on fire right now. And I have to explain that to, like, I know to explain that to him, like, it's not you, it's just me. He like right now I'm overloaded with information. I need a little quiet.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:10)

Mm hmm.

Mm-hmm.

my gosh.

Yes.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (40:33)

So I think that when you do that, you'll also come at explaining things in a way that's more compassionate and easier to communicate rather than getting frustrated because you'll understand yourself better. And you understand sort of the situation that somebody else might not have that level of sensitivity and you do so they may not realize it. And I just feel like it really puts so much clarity to the situation.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:41)

Right.

Right.

Right.

absolutely. if you happen to have kids or if you're on this fertility journey and in the future you're blessed with kids, the likelihood of them maybe being sensitive is quite high. And so you will be able to model for them. I joke one day, my daughter was probably three or four at the time, and she kept asking me for things in the bathroom. like, what is she doing? I walked in and she was laying in the tub with a book and a cup.

Michelle (41:17)

Yes.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:30)

and a towel over her face. And I'm like, what are you doing? She goes, I'm being mommy. I know, but it made me really proud too, because I'm like, OK, great. So this has been modeled for her. And you know, one thing we didn't even mention that we probably should have mentioned at the very beginning, high sensitivity is not abnormal. It's an adaptive trait. And it is a third. Up to a third of the human population is highly sensitive.

Michelle (41:35)

That's really cute.

Yeah.

you

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:59)

And there are ranges. So you have high sensitivity, medium sensitivity, and there are actually people who are low sensitive as well. Like their nervous system takes a lot of stimulation to be activated. And you might notice if you start learning this about yourself, you'll be able to start reflecting on people in your life and how you respond to them. And there might be people you can get to depth with a little bit more easily. Those might be your other co-HSPs.

Michelle (42:12)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:29)

And this is not just humans. The research shows this is in hundreds of animal species, even bugs. So it's everywhere. It's part of nature. It's part of nature, essentially.

Michelle (42:38)

Wow, that's fascinating. That's so interesting. It's wild. You know, and I think to myself, like one of the things that I noticed, and it's so interesting that you said this, because I noticed that my patients, One of the things that I really observe is how they respond to treatments. Not everybody responds as quick.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:52)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Michelle (42:58)

Some people take a little longer. so I can come up with like my first protocol, but then I realized I need to shift it a little bit, depending on how they do, or sometimes I'll even use baby needles on people who are very, very sensitive. Cause I don't want to overdo it with their nervous system. They don't need the strong needles. They don't need the strong stimulation cause they feel it already. And the people that have that body awareness

Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:04)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Right.

Right.

Michelle (43:22)

is that when they have that body awareness, I feel like they respond to treatment a lot faster.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:28)

Mm hmm. Yep. You're right. Just like we were saying that you'll get more good out of the good.

Michelle (43:31)

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So interesting. I can talk to you for hours. I really enjoy our conversations. It's a lot of fun. I'll come back and then I'll have you back because I'm sure we can come up with like all kinds of things to talk about.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:37)

I know I have to have you back now.

Well, and you know the funny thing, so I'll tell your listeners my podcast is The Sensitivity Doctor, and I have folks on all the time to talk about different topics around sensitivity. Do you know I have not had an episode literally just talking about what it means to be a highly sensitive person? I would love to have you on to have a chat about what it means to another highly sensitive person, and we can just unpack it. Because we talk about it extraneously around it, but I'm like,

Michelle (44:04)

really?

Let's do it. Let's do it.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (44:16)

Yeah, we should just unpack what that means. So I would love to have you back.

Michelle (44:20)

That would be great. I really enjoy talking to you. can just like totally pick your brain. You're so interesting to talk to. I got really, and I love your energy and you're also the way you approach it in such an empowering way. I love that. Like I think it's just amazing. yeah, yeah, this is fun. I'm really excited. I actually met you.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (44:26)

thank you. You too.

Mm-hmm. Thank you.

Yeah, it was a good it was a good meeting

Michelle (44:41)

it was definitely a great meeting. So I would love for you to share for people listening and if they want to learn more, if they want to read your books, how they can reach you and how they can work with you.

Dr. Amelia Kelley (44:47)

Mm-hmm.

Sure, so as I was mentioning, I do have my podcast that comes out every Thursday. But if you want to learn basically anything that I have to offer, it's on my website at AmeliaKelly.com, and that's Kelly with an EY. And I have links to my Psychology Today blog. It's called In Your Corner. I've got meditations on Insight Timer on there. There's a couple different quizzes, like if you want to figure out if you're in a...

trauma bond, if you want to learn if you're a highly sensitive person, I have an assessment on there. I also offer what I think to be the most important tools from some of my books that I want to make available to everyone for free, like the safety plan of how to get out of domestic violence situations, suicide safety plan, gas lighting checklist, like some of the things that I feel like everyone really should just have. You don't need to go buy the book.

Those are available too. So you can also find links for all my books and I also have a group that I meet every Tomorrow actually it's meeting. It's every other Thursday It's called powered by ADHD and it's for women with ADHD and sometimes we have guest speakers on which we're gonna have tomorrow night so I'm excited about that and I love that because it's a resource that women anywhere in the world can reach out You don't have to be in the state of North Carolina where I'm licensed. So

virtually anyone who is a woman or identifies as a woman can join that.

of course. Thanks for having me. Yeah, you'll come back. Awesome.

EP 316 A Fertility Story of Loss and Hope | Samantha Bonizzi

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Samantha Bonizzi shares her deeply personal journey through pregnancy loss, the challenges of trying to conceive, and the emotional rollercoaster of navigating IVF. She emphasizes the importance of community, support, and mental health resources during such a difficult time. Samantha also discusses her motivation for co-authoring a book that shares stories of fertility loss and hope, aiming to help others feel less alone in their experiences. Samantha highlights the significance of self-care, therapy, and trusting one's intuition throughout the journey to motherhood.

About Samantha:

Samantha is a writer with a background in public relations and communications. She spent her early career working in PR for lifestyle brands and has since transitioned to a corporate internal communications role at a tech company. 

She grew up in New Jersey, where she’s lived most of her life (besides a brief stint in New York City), and now resides just outside Montclair with her husband and mini bernedoodle. She loves the area and has written several stories about things to do and places to go for a local lifestyle website, The Montclair Girl. She also loves reading, working out and doing yoga, hiking and being outdoors, and traveling. 

Samantha has always had a passion for wellness and women’s health, which has taken center stage in her life since experiencing pregnancy loss and fertility challenges. Now, she wants to pay what she's learned forward and is on a mission to help women who find themselves on similar paths.

IG: @sam.bonizzi 

IG: @thelosseswekeep 

Website: https://samantha-bonizzi-bookshop.square.site  

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Be sure to check out our Fertility Empowerment Holiday Bundle here https://www.michelleoravitz.com/fertilityempowermentbundle before it’s gone! 

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Samantha.

Samantha Bonizzi (00:02)

Thank you so much for having me. Excited to chat with you today.

Michelle (00:05)

Me too. So excited to chat with you and I've worked with you before and I'm excited to have you on and super excited that you co-authored this book. And I would love for the listeners to hear your journey and really what inspired you to share your story with others.

Samantha Bonizzi (00:26)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So just to take a bunch of steps back and kind of share what led me to this point, I guess to start, know, we, my husband and I wanted to start a family. And so like most of our generation, you know, I was on birth control for 12 years and in talking to my doctor about, you know, starting to try.

It was as simple as, know, get off birth control, start trying and see what happens. It should happen pretty quickly if you're lucky. So that's exactly what we did. Sure enough, we were pregnant within a few months of trying, which we were, you know, very excited about, of course, and, you know, just thought we were lucky in that it happened to us so quickly. We

You know, initially, I've kept the news to ourselves for the first eight or nine weeks. And at that point, things had been going well when we went in for our first initial appointments. You know, we saw the heartbeat. The doctor said everything was looking good. The first big milestone, of course, is that 12, 13 week appointment when you go in for the genetic testing. And, you know,

Like I said, up until this point, we at first were being pretty discreet with the news, but we did start to share with close family and friends. We weren't shouting it from the rooftops yet, but we definitely, you know, we were excited. And so we started to tell some of our immediate circle. and so we went in for that appointment, pretty naive. think, we, I had, of course, as a woman, you're familiar with the fact that miscarriages can happen.

My mom had even had two miscarriages during her, after she had me before my brother. But it wasn't something that we really talked about. And it wasn't anything even in my immediate circle in terms of friends or close family members, anything that they had gone through. So I was pretty naive going in. I think we went into that appointment.

excited to just be in an ultrasound and see the baby. It had been five weeks, I think, since I had been in for an appointment. So we were just, you know, excited to see the baby. And even when the nurse was doing the initial ultrasound, the baby came up on the screen. We were like, we didn't notice anything was wrong. We were just like very excited. And then all of sudden we did notice that the technician went quiet. You know,

Michelle (03:07)

Mm.

Samantha Bonizzi (03:16)

she was kind of dynamic with us in the beginning when we first came in and then all of a sudden her her demeanor changed right away. And then at that point she left to go get the doctor. The doctor came in and simply told us that we didn't have a viable pregnancy. And it was it wasn't our doctor because it was like this genetic doctor that was doing this particular scan for us. So luckily our doctor was in

Michelle (03:42)

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bonizzi (03:45)

the same building. So we're able to be like ushered into see the doctor right away and kind of walk through what our next steps would be. But we were just very shocked. We were not expecting that to happen, especially, you know, getting up until that 13 week mark is where we were at. So we kind of felt like and I think also I didn't understand the concept of a missed miscarriage, which is what happened to us.

Michelle (03:51)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bonizzi (04:14)

When I thought of a miscarriage before, assumed it was something that happened where you started to bleed and it happened at home and you know clearly like you are having a miscarriage. So when I went in there and they told me we didn't have a viable pregnancy, I didn't know what that meant, how that happened, why that happened. So it was all very shocking, I would say. So it was at that point, we talked to our doctor, he recommended having a DNC.

Michelle (04:23)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (04:42)

which is what we did a few days later and you know, you go into the hospital and that was my first time in that hospital where I thought we would be delivering our baby and then you have to go in there and remove the baby. so that was really, I guess, a surreal moment. and you know, to be frank, like the DNC procedure is pretty quick and painless and you wake up and you're just, the baby's gone. It's not.

Michelle (04:53)

Wow, yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (05:10)

inside of you anymore. And you're just kind of left unsure of what to do next. They don't really provide you with any resources. They just send you on your way. And in talking with my doctor, he was like, you know, we'll follow up with the results. Like that's part of the reason we did the DNC so that they could test the tissue to kind of confirm because they had he had projected it was likely a chromosome issue. But they wanted to make sure of that. So

said they would follow up in a few weeks. And in terms of like getting pregnant again, it was really like, you could start trying as soon as you get your next period. It's up to you in terms of when you're emotionally ready. Like, well, how am going to know if I'm emotionally ready? Like, this is such a shock to the system. So, you know, I think at that point I was shook for sure. And like I said, I didn't have anybody in my

Michelle (05:54)

Yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (06:06)

immediate circle who had been through anything like that. So I kind of didn't know where to turn. At the same time, I didn't really go out and seek a lot of resources because I felt like, you know, the way the doctor described it, it was something that could happen to anybody. It was a spontaneous thing. You know, it's not an indication of there being a problem with you being able to hold on to a pregnancy. So just try again.

And so I think I was just determined, you know, I'm a very, I have a very, I think, know, type a personality where I'm like, okay, let's just like get it done. Let's keep trying. We can do this. And so I was sad, of course, but I was also at the same time, like so determined to just make it work the next time. And so we did really jump into trying again right away. And I think we were pregnant three months later.

Michelle (06:44)

Hmm.

Samantha Bonizzi (07:05)

and you know, I think when you deal with a pregnancy after loss, you're robbed of a lot of things. there's no longer like an immediate joy of a positive pregnancy test because it's like quickly followed with fear and anxiety. It's the same thing can happen to you, you know, going, going into an ultrasound is scary because especially if that's where you found out about your miscarriage, there's a sphere that you're going to receive the same news.

Michelle (07:29)

Bye.

Samantha Bonizzi (07:34)

And, you know, all those things were definitely building up in my head when we found out we were pregnant. At the same time, I just felt like surely it wouldn't happen to us again. You know, I was sure that we had paid our dues and like this was something that just randomly happened to us the first time and that we would be okay. And even as the doctor, you know, he had flagged

a few concerns, things like the fetal heart rate and the size of the sac and those types of things. And he of just had us continue to come back every two weeks to kind of check on those markers. But I still was like, no, this is gonna work. And so when he told us eight weeks that it would again wasn't a viable pregnancy, I think I was even almost more shocked.

Michelle (08:13)

you

Well.

Samantha Bonizzi (08:28)

than the first time and you would think that, okay, you've been through this, you know how to deal. It wasn't like that because after the second one, it was almost worse because the realization set in that this wasn't just a spontaneous thing that happened to us. Like to have these miscarriages back to back, I felt like, okay, something must be wrong. Either I've done something to deserve this and I'm being punished or something is wrong with us where this isn't working.

Michelle (08:32)

Right.

Samantha Bonizzi (08:55)

I think especially being in that short time window too. And when you see everyone around you, like I had all my friends were having babies at that time and it worked for them. Why isn't it working for us? So it was again a shock. I think at that point I told myself we need to slow down. We need to kind of understand if

there is an underlying issue we need to kind of reassess before we just jump into trying again. And I don't know if that's, I don't know exactly what led from the first to the second. And if we did try too soon, I'll never know how those answers, but I just felt like we had to slow down and just reassess what was happening. So at that point, I, you know, I started to go to a fertility clinic, started to have all the testing.

that they recommend for recurring pregnancy loss. And that took a few months. And through all of that, they said everything seems to be fine. It's likely due to poor egg quality or bad luck that this happened, which is on one hand reassuring because when there's not a glaring issue, you at least know, okay, well, this is, you know, there's not something, you know, glaring that's

preventing this from happening. But on the other hand, it's like, if it's bad luck, then why is this happening? And that's actually the title of my chapter is, if nothing is wrong, then how do we fix it? Which is how I felt. You're telling me nothing's wrong, well then what is our path forward? And really it was left unclear. It was, you could do IVF and potentially reduce your risk of miscarriage because you could do things like,

Michelle (10:30)

Right. Yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (10:46)

you know, the genetic testing and everything where you have more of a chance of having a healthy embryo. But that's not a guarantee. Or if you feel more comfortable trying it naturally, you can do that. And so there was this sort of leaning recommendation towards IVF. But then you're like, well, this is a fertility clinic. Do they just want me to do the IVF? Is this really what's best for us? So

Michelle (10:53)

Right.

Right.

Samantha Bonizzi (11:11)

In hearing all that, you you kind of go through, at least for me, I went through sort of a spiral of guilt around, again, why was this happening? If there isn't a, if there isn't a medical reason, what is the reason, you know, kind of searching for answers in all of it? So you, you know, I definitely went through spirals of why me. And I think what helped at that point was just like hearing other people's stories.

And it really took a lot of effort for me to find those people to connect with on the topic who had been through it. Like I said, I didn't have anybody I knew personally who had been through it, at least on a close knit level. So it was like taking to social media and being connected through friends to other women who had been through something similar and who came out on the other side.

Michelle (11:50)

Hmm.

Samantha Bonizzi (12:09)

And I think that was what was most helpful. I did support groups as well. And I think that was also helpful in just having those regular touch points with people who are going through the same thing that you're going through and just got it. So I think between those two things, that, that really helps with those negative spirals of emotion that I was feeling. you know, in considering IVF, which was a big decision,

Michelle (12:09)

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bonizzi (12:38)

It was talking to people who had done IVF and really understanding the process from them that sort of gave me the push to give it a shot. think ultimately it came down to just what I thought best in my gut for us, like in talking to my husband about it. And we felt like it was the right call for us. But again, it was a very hard decision.

Michelle (12:55)

Yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (13:09)

I think, yeah, it was tough, but we ultimately decided to go through with the IVF. And I'm very grateful that we did because we were lucky enough where we had a successful retrieval and a successful transfer. And I'm currently nine months pregnant. So that's kind of where I'm at in a nutshell. And what led me to the book,

Michelle (13:30)

Yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (13:37)

I had been connected, the lead author, her name is Jamie Christ. She was somebody I was connected to through my cousin who actually lives in Miami. And when I was in Miami visiting her, my cousin, that's when I wanted to see you and I was going through the fertility treatment. But my cousin connected me with Jamie as one of those women who had been through something similar to what I was going through to kind of talk through different.

Michelle (13:47)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bonizzi (14:04)

aspects of the journey and resources and things of that nature. And so we kind of just kept in touch and then she was looking for authors to join her on this anthology project that she was working on. And I decided at the time I hadn't found out I was pregnant. I didn't even find out I was pregnant yet. I was just about to transfer when I decided to do it. But it was something, you know, during my journey

Michelle (14:28)

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bonizzi (14:34)

I had been journaling a lot and kind of writing about my experience and I always thought, you know, it would be great to share this one day. And so this felt like the right opportunity to do that and to start talking about it and sharing my story. So I joined Jamie and eight other authors, including myself on this book called The Losses We Keep, Our Journey of Fertility, Loss and Neverending Hope.

And it's just a compilation of our stories. So we each have a chapter and we share, you know, what we went through and every story is unique and different. So there's really something for everybody who's either going through, going through it or know somebody who's going through it. So it's really beautiful how it all came together and yeah, kind of what led me there.

Michelle (15:26)

I that's so beautiful that first of all, I think there's something therapeutic about sharing your story and getting your story out there. Plus, that is going to help others And it's kind of interesting when you were talking about your experience with a doctor and it was kind of like you went and then they're like, okay, you know, well, it's good luck next time. And then you're off.

with no guidance whatsoever. I hear that story time and time again. I hear it so much that I'm don't they create some kind of like the mental health aspect? Why don't they create some kind of support for people? Because I feel like that's part of the whole process. I feel like it should be part of it. When you're going through a loss like that, and it's often your first loss and

you don't know who to talk to and you might not have a community. Some people don't have anybody like at all. So I just don't understand why I feel like it should be protocol for people going through it. And so that's why I love the fact that you actually wrote the story because I feel like when people hear other people's stories, I think the biggest thing and tell me if this is accurate, it's just knowing that you're not alone, that you're not like alone in this experience.

Samantha Bonizzi (16:24)

Yep.

Yeah.

It says that's exactly right. And that was a big part of my why too. was partly being therapeutic and kind of being able to get all of this out there and get it on the page and share it. But it was also being able to help other women feel less alone because that was something I so needed when I was going through it was to have that sense of community or just.

hearing people who had been through the journey and who ended up on the other side. And that's a lot of what Jamie talks about too and why she started this project was because when she was going through it, like, yes, there were resources that you can find in books and things, but at times could feel sort of negative. And she just needed the optimism. And this is really, you know, it's meant to be a beacon of hope for women who are going through it. Yeah.

Michelle (17:25)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah. It's just, it's something that is so needed. because I think when you're going through that, you really don't have any guarantee. you just don't know how tomorrow is going to be and like how it's going to work out. And it's always kind of like having faith. Okay, well, you know, my past has been disappointment and loss and hurt and pain. And so is my future going to look like that too?

Samantha Bonizzi (17:46)

Yeah.

Michelle (17:58)

And then what I also thought was really interesting, and I think it's great that you bring up is that when you talked about IVF and you considered it and all the different thoughts that you have, all these things that you think in the back of your head, like, well, are they trying to sell this on me? These are those little thoughts that we all have, but we don't always speak or even acknowledge. It's kind of like sitting there behind everything.

Samantha Bonizzi (18:22)

Yeah.

Michelle (18:24)

So when you're thinking that what I found really amazing with how you described it is that you assessed, kind of sat with it and you also address the fact that you're like, wait, rather than saying, okay, this is better luck next time, let me try again, again, because there's nothing wrong and kind of going with what you were being told, you let your inner guidance, your inner wisdom, I call it, it's almost like our inner compass leads you to

uncovering more and you're like, wait, I'm not going to put myself through this again, before I get more information. And then also when you got information, you assessed everything and you listened to your gut. always talk to people about that because even I, as a practitioner, cannot bypass that. that's your, you have the intelligence inside your body, inside your mind that guides you to what is right for you.

Samantha Bonizzi (19:22)

Yeah, I mean, that was a big, big part of it because it was such a, it was such a heavy decision and you could weigh out the pros and cons all day long. But at the end of the day, it's just what you feel in your gut is right. And I think for us, and I say us, cause it really was a joint decision between my husband and I, even though it was my body, we just felt like we needed to try something different. You know, what we had done historically wasn't working and you know, we trusted

Michelle (19:46)

Yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (19:51)

the doctor that we were working with and we trusted the clinic and I had done a lot of the leg work to get us to that point. I switched fertility clinics, I switched doctors even at that fertility clinic once I was there. So I felt like I had done so much to get us to that point and it felt like the right next step. mean, there was certainly doubt in all of that because I didn't know, I didn't know what was going to happen and the thought of IVF is scary. When you haven't been through it, you don't know.

Michelle (20:07)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (20:20)

And I had never dealt with anything medically before either. So even just like being in and out of the doctor and all of that and dealing with doctors, I wasn't used to that. So that was something I really had to orient myself around and learn how to talk to doctors and advocate for ourselves. know, like with all the testing and everything, there were moments where I really did have to advocate and push for more testing and push for them to test my husband's sperm because there was...

Michelle (20:37)

Right. Yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (20:48)

point one which they didn't want to and you know that would feel good to have it be put on the women. So there was a lot of moments where you kind of have to, I don't know, you kind of learn and grow from it I think and that's at least what I tried to take from it but it was all definitely a challenge but yes I agree that just listening to your intuition at the end of the day is what's gonna push you forward.

Michelle (20:51)

Yep.

Totally.

Yeah, no doubt. And I know that the community was like a big thing for you too, is just connecting with other people helped you get strength, but also clarity, I imagine.

Samantha Bonizzi (21:29)

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think, like I said, it was, was in talking to other women who had been through it. And I think, you know, I, when you envision how you start a family, you never envision there to be challenges like this, miscarriages, fertility treatment, all of that. And so, because it was just such a new concept that you kind of have to orient yourself around, it's helpful to hear from other people who had

been through it and can kind of help shed light on the experience and make you feel like, okay, this is actually a moment of strength and not a weakness. It's not a moment of weakness that we are now having to resort to fertility treatment and we can't get pregnant the natural way, which I hate that concept of natural versus medicated. Yeah, it's all natural, right? And that was what

Michelle (22:24)

it's all natural. It's a baby. Yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (22:29)

I told myself in the end, I don't care the path that we get there anymore, I just want the baby in our arms. And so whatever it takes to get there, I will do it. And that helped me, I think come to terms with IVF as well, is that it's the destination that matters, not the journey.

Michelle (22:36)

Yeah.

I love that. actually really love that you're saying that because it's true. It's almost like that. As soon as you surrender the how it seems to make things a lot easier, then you're just like, okay, and then because you you're moving with the flow of the how, rather than resisting it at every point, because that resistance is only going to cause more stress.

Samantha Bonizzi (22:51)

No.

Yes.

It does.

Yes, exactly. And I think that was a big part of it. When I was going through the testing and everything, it was like, I was trying to gain so much control over every little aspect. I mean, and not even just with doctors, but in, you know, the lifestyle changes that I was making and putting effort into my diet and the supplements and the environment, all those things that you hear about that are supposed to help the fertility and

I think there's definitely some merit to it, but at the same time, it gets exhausting. Just having to, you want to think that you have, yeah, and you want to think you have some semblance of control over the situation, in which for me, it was very much a coping mechanism, because I felt such at a loss with everything, that I was like, okay, if I do these things and I control these things, at least I can, you know, feel like I'm doing something and I'm making, and I'm getting momentum towards, you know, the end goal here.

Michelle (23:46)

It's a lot. It's a lot of pressure.

Yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (24:08)

But I think I became very burnt out by it all. so I think the other appealing thing with IVF was like, can kind of surrender to the process and trust the doctors and just choose this as my path forward. And there was some comfort in that.

Michelle (24:26)

Yeah, because it's almost like a plan is in place and you're just like following this plan and then you have a direction to go in.

Samantha Bonizzi (24:32)

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Michelle (24:35)

And what are other coping skills that you found doing this? Because I know obviously community is tremendous. I know that that is really because we really need people. We're such social beings. We need people. We need to hear that we're not alone. We're not the only ones thinking certain thoughts or feeling certain feelings. So having that community it eases the load, that kind of personal load.

But what are other things that you've done that you feel have helped you in the process just for people listening?

Samantha Bonizzi (25:06)

I think therapy was a big one and finding the right therapist who, for me at least, who understood what I was going through and kind of had a more specialized focus in everything maternal health. I had dabbled in therapy before and I was seeing a therapist when I first got pregnant, but I decided to switch after the miscarriage and find somebody who

Michelle (25:21)

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bonizzi (25:36)

like I said, was specialized. And, you know, I felt like could get me through the specific situation that I was going through. And I think that was really important for my healing journey, was having that regular touch point of therapy, of talk therapy, and just having an outlet to get everything out and work through whatever it was that I needed to work through.

you know, it's something where you have your friends and family and your partner, but you at the same time might feel like a, at least for me, I felt like a burden a lot of the time, like not really wanting to put that on everyone else around me. So having that like consistent therapy appointment was just always a good outlet for me to kind of sort through the ins and outs of what I was going through. So I think therapy was a big one. And then just like,

generally self-care, whatever was going to get me through, whether it was like making that massage appointment or whether it was related to fertility or not. think just having, getting out for the walk with the good podcast and like prioritizing that, like there was no limits to my self-care time, I think during that window.

Michelle (26:42)

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bonizzi (27:00)

you know, whatever I could do to make myself feel better in the short term or the long term was what I was doing.

Michelle (27:06)

That's so important because it's kind of like a self-soothing. I think that that is a really good skill to have, to find ways to make yourself feel better. Sometimes that gets neglected. It's not something that we're actually raised to think about. Oftentimes it's actually quite the opposite. We feel guilty about it. We're like, you know, what are you doing sitting around? You're not doing anything. So you feel almost guilty about it. And it's a conditioning because it's really something that is so important really for

Samantha Bonizzi (27:10)

Yeah.

Michelle (27:35)

our bodies, for our nervous systems. I often talk about nervous system because it's so important for fertility health, but it's also important for your emotional state as well. And I also love that you brought up therapy, but specifically with somebody who is specialized in your specific needs, which there are out there just for people listening.

And you can find people who are very specifically specialized in this field and understand the process. They understand the grieving process and how, you know, there's patterns to every type of emotion. So I think it's really important. Yeah, for sure. And I think also you'll talk to somebody who understands you specifically and what you're going through.

Samantha Bonizzi (28:12)

Yep. Yeah. So important. Yeah.

Yes, yes. And it's that and even now it's all connected. Like she, my therapist understands my journey and what got me to this pregnancy and now helping me through this pregnancy and all the other anxieties and fears that I now feel being pregnant after pregnancy loss. There's a lot of nuance to that. having her as part of...

Michelle (28:42)

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bonizzi (28:49)

the lead up and into kind where I am now has been really helpful. And even as I enter into postpartum, you know, I think everything around motherhood, it's all there's, and I don't, I'm almost, I'm about to embark on motherhood. So there's a lot to learn, but there's, you know, there's a lot of fear and anxiety. The worrying never stops. So I'm so grateful that I found the right person.

Michelle (29:03)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's true. mean, your emotions and everything that you're going through, doesn't just stop when you get to the place that you're looking to get to, you know? So there's always something and it is really important to address because it will come up sometimes and it legitimately is PTSD. mean, so you're going through something and then you were saying about going back to the doctor's office. Yes, because it's like the sensations, the lights, the visuals, all of the things.

Samantha Bonizzi (29:23)

Yeah.

Michelle (29:41)

those are all reminding us of the last time we were there and all the things that we went through in that time. So it's really important to at least even acknowledge that and know that those things can come up and that they're normal. Like it happens really, can't even think of one patient that has not gone through that, that I've worked with.

Samantha Bonizzi (29:42)

Yeah.

Yeah, and that's been the challenge is sort of having to like relive your past traumas. You know, when it comes to pregnancy after loss, you have to do the things that are hard that remind you of the bad times. You know, like you said, going into those ultrasound appointments and dealing with being in the same room you were in when you found out about your pregnancy loss and how to get through that. And

therapy did really help me with that, kind of being able to ground yourself in reality and like, what do I know is true right now? And I think the fact of keeping, you know, reminding myself that this is a different pregnancy with a different outcome with a different story was really important and a concept I kind of picked up from therapy and also support groups and things like that. So

There are all these coping mechanisms at the end of the day. It's still hard, you kind of, there's no way to go but through yeah, it's so true. And so, you know, in order to get there, I had to get pregnant again, had to go through the first trimester, had to get through the ultrasounds in order to get to where I am now. So.

Michelle (31:01)

Yeah.

I love that thing. It's true.

Mm-hmm

Samantha, you are so articulate. You're really good with your words. You're really good at describing your experience I could feel the emotion in your voice, even when you're explaining it, like really, like you really walk us through that exact experience very well. Like you could really, really feel it. So first of all, I think it's just, takes a lot of courage to express things or to speak about things that are so personal.

Samantha Bonizzi (31:21)

Thank you.

Thank you.

Michelle (31:45)

And I know that you're doing this really for the benefit of people listening. So for that, I really want to commend you. think it's just beautiful. And that's kind of like the beauty of life is when you're able to take something that is so hard and so personal and know that you kind of like, it's like alchemy, know, something that can be so painful could serve a purpose for somebody else hearing it.

And then just to also share in that, I guess, that human So thank you so much for sharing that. And for people who want to read this book, how can they find it? How can they find you?

Samantha Bonizzi (32:21)

Yeah, absolutely. So we are available. The book is available on Amazon or really wherever you purchase your books. And we've been out for about two weeks. So it's fairly new out in the market, but we're excited about it and hope you'll, whether you're someone going through it or you know somebody going through it. Like I said, there's a story in there for everybody. So we hope it touches you in some way.

I'm the best place to find me is Instagram. So I'm at Sam dot Benizzi. And yeah, I'm public on there, but send me a DM. I'd love to connect.

Michelle (33:03)

Awesome. I'll have all the links in the podcast episode notes. So if anybody wants to go in there, you'll find the website and the Instagram and Samantha, you're just such a doll. Like I always liked you from the beginning when he first came in. You just have such a good energy about you. And I just, I really, yeah, I loved, I love having you on here and having this conversation with you. And then just the fact that you co-authored a book is just amazing.

Samantha Bonizzi (33:14)

Yeah.

Thank you. Likewise.

Thank you so much for having me and giving me a platform to continue to share. it's been great to connect with you. Like I said, was one time, but you really left a mark. So I'm glad we can kind of stay in contact about it as well.

Michelle (33:47)

Awesome. Well, thank you so much.

Samantha Bonizzi (33:49)

Thank you.

EP 315 What to Focus on if You’re Trying to Conceive After 40 | Dr. Marc Sklar

In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I sit down with Dr. Marc Sklar to delve into evolving perspectives on fertility, especially for women over 40. We discuss the need to shift our focus from quantity to quality in fertility treatments, and the empowering impact this has on women navigating their fertility journeys. We cover the realities of IVF, the importance of patience, self-advocacy, and creating space for personal growth and healing. Marc and I also explore complex factors such as genetics, autoimmune issues, and male-related factors in recurrent pregnancy loss. This conversation is full of valuable insights for anyone on their fertility journey, promoting a holistic approach to healing and growth.

Takeaways

• A shift in mindset is crucial for couples seeking fertility care after 40.

• Quality of eggs and embryos becomes more important than quantity as women age.

• Understanding hormones is important, but shouldn't be the sole focus.

• Regular ovulation is a key indicator of fertility, regardless of age.

• Real-life success stories provide hope and perspective for those trying to conceive.

• Patients should feel empowered to advocate for themselves in medical settings.

• IVF is not a guaranteed solution and should not be the first option considered.

• Donor eggs can be a valuable option, but should not be the first recommendation based solely on age.

• The energetics of fertility are crucial for healing.

• Recurrent pregnancy loss can stem from various factors, including genetics and autoimmune issues.

• Male factors contribute to 50% of miscarriages, often overlooked.

• The importance of the uterine environment in fertility cannot be ignored.

• Quick fixes are a societal conditioning that impacts health decisions.

• Understanding the microbiome can enhance fertility treatments.

• Emotional states can significantly affect physical health and fertility.

Be sure to check out our Fertility Empowerment Holiday Bundle here https://www.michelleoravitz.com/fertilityempowermentbundle before it’s gone!

Guest Bio:

Dr. Marc Sklar — a.k.a The Fertility Expert — is a natural fertility specialist helping couples get pregnant for 21 years. He’s mission is to help you feel HOPEFUL and CONFIDENT about your fertility journey again. 

In addition to his Doctor of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine, Dr. Sklar trained at the Harvard Medical School, Mind/Body Medical Institute. He is the creator of Fertility TV, MarcSklar.com and ReproductiveWellness.com, and a Fellow of the American Board of Oriental Reproductive Medicine and Medical Advisor for Symphony Natural Health.

As well as his online program, he also supports his community via his highly popular YouTube channel: FertilityTV where he shares information packed videos to educate his followers on all things fertility. 

The Fertility Expert lives in San Diego, with his wife and two sons, where he has his clinic Reproductive Wellness. He also works with couples all over the world through his fertility online coaching - the Hope Fertility Program.

FERTILITY TV WEEKLY EPISODE - http://bit.ly/thefertilityexpert

FACEBOOK - https://www.facebook.com/thefertilityexpert

INSTAGRAM - https://www.instagram.com/the_fertility_expert/

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Be sure to check out our Fertility Empowerment Holiday Bundle here https://www.michelleoravitz.com/fertilityempowermentbundle before it’s gone!

Click here to get free access to the first chapter in The Way of Fertility Book! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome back to the podcast, Dr. Scalari.

Marc Sklar (00:03)

Welcome, well, thank you for having me. It's automatic. But no, it's awesome to reconnect. It's been a while and I'm excited to have a conversation that we both are passionate about, which is everything fertility.

Michelle (00:07)

I know it's automatic. Yes.

For sure. We're like, you could say we're a little obsessed, right? With fertility. It's like, live it, we breathe it, So awesome. actually today we're going to talk about a couple of different topics, but I wanted to talk to you about pregnancy after 40. Cause I know that a lot of what we hear out there, even about,

Marc Sklar (00:25)

100%. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Michelle (00:46)

how even after 35, it's considered a geriatric pregnancy, which I don't know about you. just don't love that term at all. It's icky. yeah, because I'm sure you see most people like closer to the age of 40 and doing really well. So I'd love for you to talk about it, your experience with that, and also some really cool examples of how it can work despite all of the naysayers.

Marc Sklar (00:55)

Yeah, not a fan of it.

Mm-hmm

Yeah, so I think, I so many things I want to talk about when you say this that I need to prioritize it in a good way. here's a couple of things that I think are really important. One is, I think our perspective about fertility, and when I say our, not ours as practitioners and doctors and providers, but more like ours as in like,

the couple who is seeking care during this time and wanting to get pregnant in their 40s, I think a mind shift has to happen. And I think that they need to think about their fertility in a slightly different way. If we are thinking about our fertility and reading everything that is really focused on

couples that are 30 or 35 or whatever age in their 30s, then we're going to be skewed differently about our own fertility and our approach needs to be different. And so I say that in the sense that, you know, we have to have a different reality of what is okay and what we're trying to achieve. A woman who's in her 30s is trying to get as many eggs as possible.

Michelle (02:43)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (02:43)

So they have as many options when they have their embryos created and they are, you know, it's usually more about in general and this is a making a generalization, but it's more about quantity versus quality. We're like, let's have as many as we have so that we can choose the best quality of those and then we can move forward, you know, with our pregnancy. And...

the approach may or may not be in those situations about egg quality, because there might be other variables that are impacting their ability to conceive. Whereas I think when we are 40 and older, my approach really shifts. I don't care about quantity. I'm really, really focused on quality. And I think that mindset has to be different as a couple.

because then we were not as disappointed like, I didn't get that many follicles and they didn't retrieve as many eggs as I would have hoped. But because that's all we hear about. We hear about, look, we need all these eggs, we need all these embryos. But the reality is, is when we get older, I don't need 20 eggs or 20 embryos, I need a couple good ones. That's really what I'm looking for is a couple good embryos.

to work with and to transfer. So I think really a mind shift needs to happen and our perspective on fertility needs to change. And so for reading and understanding things as if we were 30 versus 40 or older, then we're gonna have, I believe, skewed perspective on our fertility journey. So that to me is number one. Number two is we do all get caught up in our hormones and some of that is appropriate and some of that is not appropriate.

Is it appropriate to understand where our hormones are at when we're at any age? 100%. Is it important to understand what our estrogen is doing and what our progesterone and FSH are doing? Absolutely. Is it important to know what our AMH is? Yes. Should we get caught up in AMH and make our whole focus about AMH? No.

The research doesn't promote, doesn't support these variables. Even FSH, AMH are not good indicators for a couple's ability to conceive and have a healthy pregnancy. Are they important for us to just have a baseline and understand? Yes. Will they potentially or can they potentially influence your IVF protocol? Yes.

But that doesn't mean we as couples need to get wrapped up in those numbers and make our fertility all about that because it shouldn't be. My rule of thumb is are you having a regular cycle? Check. Are you ovulating regularly? Check. Is your bleed healthy? Check. You can conceive.

Michelle (05:40)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (06:00)

Do we have to look at these other variables? Do we need to check your thyroid? Do we need to work on your adrenal glands and stress? Do we need to make sure your gut is healthy? Do we need to make sure all the systems are functioning properly? Seem analysis is good. Fallopian tubes are open. All of those things are still important. But the main thing that as long as you're ovulating, you can get.

And I think that's a really important piece. Now, we're not talking about IVF or not IVF right now. It's just like conception at 40, right? And or older. And so I think if we just focus on the right things and don't get bogged down by these little details of someone who might approach things a little differently if they were 30, then our approach will be better. It will be healthier.

Michelle (06:37)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (06:57)

you'll be more grounded in your approach. And we could focus on the areas that really need attention and support. And so I think that piece is really important as we are in our 40s, approaching fertility, still wanting to conceive. If we're always comparing ourselves to other women and other circumstances, we're gonna lose sight of what we need to do and always be trying to like catch up or do what they're doing. And I think that is...

That can really push us down the wrong road. I say this because truly I work with so many women who are over 40. And I see this time and time again. So it's coming from a lot of experience working with women over 40. And I have a wonderful story to share of a woman who is, and everyone will gasp when they hear, okay, when she conceived she was 48.

Michelle (07:55)

That's awesome. I love that.

Marc Sklar (07:55)

She is, I just spoke to her two days ago. When she delivers, she will be 49. Okay? And I'm not saying she didn't have a long journey.

Michelle (08:08)

Was this natural or was it IVF?

Marc Sklar (08:11)

This time was natural, but I'm not saying she didn't have a long journey. She did. I'm not saying it was easy. It was not. It was a long journey. It was difficult. Miscarriages, conceiving naturally, conceiving through IVF, long IVF protocols, multiple clinics, like all these things. So it wasn't easy. It was long, but she's 32 weeks pregnant right now.

Michelle (08:40)

Wow, amazing.

Marc Sklar (08:41)

And I say that because it's possible. It can happen. And these are the sorts of things we see on a regular basis. I'm not saying it's easy at 48, not at all. But I say that for some perspective on the process. Okay. And I think that, you know, do I think everyone could last for seven plus years trying? No, I don't think that's for everybody. She was never going to give up.

Michelle (08:51)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (09:11)

Like regardless, like she was never going to stop and never give up until she was pregnant. And that's what she told me. She's like, I'm not going to stop and I'm determined. I was like, okay, I'll support you. Right. That, that, that process is not for everybody. Some people will be on it for a year or just have one or two IVF transfers. And they're like, this is too much. I'm done. I'm going to move on. And I respect everybody's path in that process, but

Michelle (09:21)

Wow, amazing. Yeah.

Right.

Marc Sklar (09:39)

I want everyone to know it's possible and that's why I share that story. I think it's possible regardless of age with the right support and the right process and the right focus of our attention.

Michelle (09:51)

I love that. I really do. And I love the stories because I think that there's so many people that can benefit and you have that sign hope in the background. And it's true. Like those are, but stories, real life stories, there's nothing like real life stories to provide real hope. Cause you can hear, you know, there's a chance of this or a chance of that. But when you actually see an example of somebody going through those challenges that you are and having a successful pregnancy,

Marc Sklar (10:00)

Yeah.

Michelle (10:21)

I think that there's nothing that compares to that.

Marc Sklar (10:24)

Yeah, absolutely. And I love to bring in stories wherever possible. And she was just at top of mind because I just booked her two days ago. So yeah.

Michelle (10:33)

That's awesome. You know what I find really cool is the Guinness Book of World Records, the oldest pregnancy is 58 and it was natural. And it was a woman in England who, you know, in England, they don't have a lot of sunlight and, know, and vitamin D access naturally. So I thought that was really cool. But it's, it could be done. It's possible. Just like you said, and I love that you said

Marc Sklar (10:45)

Wow. No.

Michelle (10:58)

as long as you're ovulating, there is a possibility that you can get pregnant.

Marc Sklar (11:02)

Yeah, yeah, we see this, we do see this all the time. Look, as soon as you hit 35 and 38 and certainly 40 and older, you're going to read things and hear things that say, you can't, it's not possible, you won't, you need donor, you need IVF, whatever it is that you're gonna hear, you're gonna hear it all.

I think the hardest time is when you hear it from the person on the other side of the desk in a white coat that says to you, your only option is donor, just give up. And we all hear variations of those words, whether it's not possible, just use donor, whatever variation of that, of what I just said, when you go into an office, whether that's your OB,

Michelle (11:46)

True.

Marc Sklar (12:01)

or your REI or whoever it might be, and you're sitting down talking to them and they see your age, they assume certain things and they make certain judgments. And they express those verbally to you. And you hear that and that registers in your brain that embeds into your brain. And you start to believe it. Well, yeah, right.

Michelle (12:22)

It's nocebo.

True.

Marc Sklar (12:28)

I've never heard it, say it. really like that phrase. Yeah.

Michelle (12:31)

You're never going to be able to get it out of your head now. Every time a woman comes in and tells you the story.

Marc Sklar (12:36)

Yeah. And so look, they said this to you, it and our our brains are really strong and we imprint with these negative things very easily. It's much harder to imprint with all the positive, it takes more effort. And so it imprints into our brain. And now we start to believe it. Well, Dr. So and so said, it's not possible, I'm not going to do it, I can't. And then we repeat that to ourselves so often that

Michelle (12:49)

Right. It's true.

Marc Sklar (13:05)

Now our body and our brains believe that to be true. so if someone says something negative to you, you have to work double or triple as hard on yourself to get that out. And you need to express to them, I didn't come here to hear negativity. I didn't come here for you to tell me that I can't. I'm determined to get pregnant.

Michelle (13:09)

100%.

Marc Sklar (13:33)

And it's fine if you're not able or willing to help me, I'll go someplace else, but I don't need you to tell me that I can't do it, because I know that I can. And you have to do it in that moment. You have to say that in that moment to them, because what you're saying to them is repeating it back to yourself to retrain yourself and get rid very quickly, get rid of that negative comment so it doesn't embed into your brain, into your conscious.

Michelle (13:52)

Yeah.

Marc Sklar (14:00)

But it also allows them, they need to be woken up. One, they need to be told this is not okay. And two, you have to have the power and the strength to verbalize that truth to them. Okay. You might not be getting pregnant in the conventional way that you thought or they thought. You might not get pregnant in the way that they would like you to. It doesn't mean that you cannot get pregnant. It means that it might take longer. It might be a different path. It might be...

whatever. And so I think it's really important in those moments to stand up for yourself and verbalize that and let them know they might not like it. It's okay. Yeah, you didn't like what they said to you. So it's fine.

Michelle (14:41)

Yeah, exactly.

Totally, totally. And that's like really taking your power back regardless, ultimately it's your journey. You're not there to make the doctor feel better.

Marc Sklar (14:53)

Right, listen, I think that's such an important piece. Unlike most other medical visits and specialties, you are a consumer buying their service. Just because they're wearing a white coat and they have MD after their name does not mean

that they get the say in everything. It's your journey, it's your process. You're paying them a lot of money for their service. And even if you have insurance coverage, by the way, it's still insurance coverage that can go someplace else to pay for somebody else. So it doesn't have to go to them. And so...

You have the power, like they make it feel like they have the power and they control the situation. I want you to know you have the power. You control the situation and your outcome. It's your dollars that you're spending. You are and should be an equal participant in this process with them. And they don't have to dictate everything. Now, I'm not saying, you you're telling them the protocols to use all the time, but

It needs to be a joint effort in this process. It's totally different than going into a different medical environment and a different provider for different services. They're not charging you $20,000, those other people, for a service that's elective. So stand up for yourself. Have that empowerment to do so.

Michelle (16:34)

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah. And another point that I want to make is, you know, when you're working with a doctor, it doesn't matter how qualified, like, I feel like they should believe in your outcome. If they're doubting your outcome, find another person.

Marc Sklar (16:57)

Yeah, right now, 100%, 100%. Look, I am not opposed to donor egg. I think that donor egg is something that is super valuable and has its place. What I don't like is that just because of your age, someone is telling you, need to use donor egg. What they're really saying,

And there is certainly a place for donor egg. have lots of women that I work with that use donor egg very successfully and I'm a big proponent of it. But what, why they are telling you just based on your age to use donor egg is because their success rates are impacted by your age and the challenge, the potential challenge of getting pregnant at your age.

Michelle (17:51)

Right.

Marc Sklar (17:55)

And so for them and their success rates, they have higher chances with using donor egg and they would just prefer, it's an easier process, they would prefer that you use donor egg for that purpose. Okay, now again, does it mean that it's not the right decision for some? It just means that I think if they're just making that decision based on age, I think there's a lot of other pieces that need to be looked at before that decision is made.

Michelle (18:24)

What you just said is so important because it's the reality. Really if the system, it's the reality because their ability to really stay on top of their game is for their statistics to make them look really good. And it's human nature. They're going to be thinking about that when they're talking to you, regardless if they're, you know, they can be great doctors, the two can coexist, but

They're also in a business. So it's important to keep that in mind in the realistic aspect of it is that it's going to make them look better. They don't want to take a risk. They see it as a risk, but that doesn't mean that just because they see it that way, that that's really the case for you.

Marc Sklar (18:54)

100%.

Right, yeah. Look, absolutely. I say this also from, so everyone knows who's listening, 50 % of the couples that I work with, 50 % of them are doing IVF. I could group IUI into that as well, so IUI or IVF, some form of assistive technique. Of that number, about 15%, use donor egg.

Michelle (19:33)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (19:34)

So I'm fine with it. I'm happy to support you with it. I just often think that choice is made prematurely or that push in that direction is done prematurely without really giving you a fair chance, really looking at your case as a whole versus just looking at you as an age, as a number.

Michelle (19:56)

Same thing with IVF. I also find that with IVF that people will start out maybe three months and they're young and they're like, you know, I just want a baby now. So I'm going to go to IVF. And a lot of people have a preconceived notion just because you're paying a huge amount of money and that there's technology involved that doesn't give a guarantee. in fact, I've seen people get more successful naturally, even at an older age than going through IVF.

Marc Sklar (20:05)

Easy.

Well, the success rates for IVF for those who are listening and aren't aware are relatively low. You know, in your, from 30 to 35, those success rates are around 35 to 40 % ish. You know, depending on the clinic, some clinics might have a little higher, some a little bit lower, but roughly, you know, in the United States, that's an accurate statistic. It only goes down as you get older. And if you look, because most clinics,

Michelle (20:50)

you

Marc Sklar (20:56)

Don't have to report, but most clinics do report their statistics. If you look at statistics for IVF in their 40s without donor egg, those statistics are very, very low. So then you have to ask yourself, is this worth the money or can I get the same or better statistics and results trying naturally by addressing the root issues, by focusing on the things that I need to focus on, by getting healthy.

are those better for me? Are those odds better? One of the beautiful things you mentioned it with, you work with younger women and after three months they move forward with IVF. One of the beautiful things that's happened over the last 20 years is that fertility treatments and the fertility journey has become something that is more accepted and people are more willing to talk about it. And as a result of that,

marketing towards those communities has increased dramatically. And as a result, IBF has been spoken about more frequently because of that marketing. And so it's become so much more commonplace that couples who want to get pregnant, young, try for three months or six months, hey, it's not working.

you know, so and so did IVF and got pregnant or so, you know, we should just go do IVF. And they don't know the real statistics. They believe that it's a hundred percent successful. And as a result, it becomes the first line of treatment versus, you know, what used to be the third or fourth or fifth line of treatment, right? Well, I used to go to my OB and they used to do that. And then I would try other things. Now it's like, I'm not pregnant. Let's just go do IVF. Right. And so so many couples end up doing IVF.

thinking it's faster or more convenient without really working on themselves. And in turn, then they realized later on, I really shouldn't have started this way because it's not a guarantee. I haven't been successful. So they go there very prematurely. My preference would be is to see couples have patience. Take a step back. What's not working for me?

Michelle (23:03)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Marc Sklar (23:17)

What do I need to improve and correct? And let's work on the root issues so that way you can be successful moving forward. And I had a conversation two weeks ago with a woman. I talked about it briefly this week on my Instagram stories because I think we were both frustrated with each other during this conversation. She has a history of repeated chemical pregnancies.

And she is frustrated with the lack of results and I've just started working with her. And so I asked her, know, she, and as we just started working together, she had another chemical and I asked her to stop trying for a little bit. I'm like, you're just having these ongoing chemicals and we're really not able to make progress. I just wrote out this plan for you. I want to give it some opportunity. You know, it's the end of the, it's close to the end of the year.

How about we just take off right now through the end of the year? Let's just take a break. Let's enjoy life and let's work on ourselves. And she felt like she was wasting time and she was feeling, I could feel her as soon as I said it, like getting anxious about like just the time of giving, creating this time to, and she's in her early forties. And she said, you know, I don't think I'm gonna do that. I can't do that. I'm gonna.

Michelle (24:19)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (24:44)

I'm going to keep trying because I feel like I'm wasting time. We had this back and forth, this long conversation back and forth. I'm going to totally support her and respect her decision about how she wants to move forward. I just don't agree. Sometimes taking a step back and working on ourselves and creating space is progress towards our ultimate goal. I know that we think that if we're not actively having intercourse and trying to conceive at ovulation every month, that we're wasting time.

Michelle (24:57)

Yeah.

yeah.

Marc Sklar (25:15)

Well, in a situation like this, we're just spinning our wheels. If all we do is continue to do the same thing every month, expecting a different result, I don't know how that's gonna change. So we need to give ourselves a little bit of opportunity. And she's so worked up about it and anxious about it, she's trying to control every aspect and she's scared. She's making this decision out of fear.

Michelle (25:19)

Totally.

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (25:43)

So one, the decision's being made out of fear, and two, she's trying to strangle, like, I'm gonna control all of this. It's not, we are typically not successful if we make decisions out of fear, number one, okay? And number two, the more we try to strangle something, the more you strangle it and you don't allow it to be successful.

We need to create some space, some room for things to occur. Okay? And I'm a big proponent of this, like, let's just take a step back. Let's take a deep breath. Let's understand, let's give ourselves some space and not have to be so stressed about this. Most things, if you think about it, are created in space, in a little bit of a vacuum. Sorry, not a vacuum, in a little bit of a space. If we have this vacuum, we're constantly trying to control it. There's no space for creation.

Michelle (26:19)

Yep. Yeah.

Marc Sklar (26:39)

There's no place for an opportunity for something to be created in. So I think it's, know, painting a beautiful painting is created from a blank canvas. It's created from space. And the same thing with our life. We need to create an opportunity for life to be created. And so that means not straining, not holding on so tight, not trying to control every little thing.

Michelle (26:52)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Marc Sklar (27:08)

Let's take a step back. I'm not saying you don't like do the right things. I'm saying we don't try to control all of those things so closely. And I think this is really such an important lesson for all of us because our tendency when we're told is I'm gonna do it differently. I'm gonna add this in like, right? And you're just like more and more and more more and more. So that's like this stranglehold that happens.

Michelle (27:29)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (27:35)

And I want us all to just let go a little bit more. It doesn't mean you're giving up. It doesn't mean you're taking a break. It doesn't have to be. It means you're just not holding on so tight to the outcome and the process. And I think this is so, so valuable for us. Difficult to do. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's so valuable. you know, I know her and I, were both...

kind of frustrated by the conversation because it didn't feel like she was listening to me and she didn't feel like she wanted to move on with my recommendations. She felt frustrated by me asking her to take a break. But I say it out of all love, like that is what I feel like is going to be the most beneficial for her in that situation. And I've had these conversations with others in the past and I'm just saying this from experience. So for all of you listening, sometimes we just gotta let go a little bit.

We've got to just ease up just a little bit.

Michelle (28:31)

love this.

Yeah, no, I love this so much. you have no idea. Cause it, think that like you just said, you've had so much experience, you've seen this. And when you do something over and over again for many years, what happens is you start to get a feeling for it. You know, my husband works in the ER. He's starting to have a feel. He gets a sense when somebody's really sick or somebody saying they're sick, you start to get a sixth sense. You know, maybe we can't measure that, but it's a real thing. And I love that you talk about that. Cause to me that's

Marc Sklar (28:37)

Yeah.

Michelle (29:04)

being in a state of flow, being in a state of flow is the same exact thing that happens in our body when our chi flows and our vitality is able to feed all of our organs. cannot happen when it's constricted. And then going inward. Yeah, that's just going into the yin. You can't be constantly yang. You have to go back into the yin as well. And yin is incredibly productive.

Marc Sklar (29:25)

Yeah.

Michelle (29:28)

Like what happens when we're sleeping? We're in a state of yin. It's the most productive thing your body can do. You can't possibly have so much going on without that kind of like inert state. know, so it's, yeah, it's totally important, but also I don't know if you ever follow Dr. Joe Dispenza. I'm obsessed with his teachings. And have you ever done his meditations? So his meditations, he actually takes you through a form of induction, which

Marc Sklar (29:48)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

No.

Michelle (29:58)

It's not hypnosis, but he gets you into a state of space, of becoming aware of space. Because when you become aware of space and everything that he does is based on science. actually has a whole research team on this. And this idea of kind of allowing this state of space, as they learn in quantum physics, you know, getting to this place where we're not locked in to the material world. We're not locked in.

We're kind of like moving back so we can allow this divine intelligence to take over. And then, and then it fixes things. It takes care of your body. does what it needs to do. Cause that's not our job. Our job is yet to direct and to intend, but our job is not to fix every single thing. When we try to do that, all we're doing is getting in the way of this divine intelligence. So I love that you're saying this because it totally like, it totally speaks the language that I'm feeling when it comes to.

fertility health and overall health like every way really.

Marc Sklar (31:00)

Yeah, I agree. it's something I talk about. I have to do it, I feel like, repeatedly to the same person to get them to hear the message. And it's not intuitive. Like, personality-wise and for many of us, our goal is like, just want to fix it. I want to solve it. I want to do it. That creates this stranglehold. And so it's not intuitive for them to kind

Michelle (31:08)

Yeah, because it's not common knowledge. It's not common.

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (31:30)

pull back a little bit and feel like that's moving forward. But it is.

Michelle (31:34)

Yeah. Yeah, totally. Cause I mean, we have, we're conditioned to, you know, to first of all, get quick fixes. I mean, this is, we've been conditioned for years and this is all marketing for quick fixes, like quicker, faster, better, you know, and we also are conditioned to no pain, no gain. You know, you have to work for it. You have to get it. You have to be on top and

Marc Sklar (31:46)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (31:59)

So over time, this is just a habit. That's going to be our knee jerk reaction or response to pretty much anything, but it's not necessarily the response your body needs.

Marc Sklar (32:10)

Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's actually with the younger generation, that's only getting worse. Maybe not the no pain, no gain part, but the quick fix. That's our generation. Yeah. The younger generation is like, I don't want any pain, but I want all the gain. Yeah. And the quick fix, you know, part of it is because of the phone.

Michelle (32:20)

Yeah, that might be more our generation. This is true. It's true. Yeah. I just want to be on my phone.

Dopamine.

Marc Sklar (32:39)

the dopamine, but also like this, as much as Amazon has been a great service to so many people, it's a huge disservice. We, and especially the younger generation, expect everything now in a day. Right? That's the quick fix. That's like immediate gratification. Free delivery, two days. Now everyone expects free delivery and they want it there in two days. And it doesn't work like,

Michelle (32:55)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Marc Sklar (33:09)

The world doesn't typically work that way, but they've preconditioned us to this. And that's to our detriment, right? Because that gets translated across the board to all aspects of our life. Now we want things faster. We more immediate gratification. it should have been fixed. Why didn't they get back to me, right? Like all of these things, I think that's a problem. Yeah.

Michelle (33:32)

I'm like, we're on the same page. 100%. Yeah. And I think that, yeah, it just, these are mental patterns that we're constantly repeating. And I'll be honest. I mean, ever since I had my phone, I just don't feel as sharp. I don't remember as much. My attention can't stay on one thing. And even me, I'm aware of this and it's impacting me.

Marc Sklar (33:41)

Mm-hmm.

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. One of my favorite things to do both to bother my children and because it's beneficial to them is if we need to order something from Amazon, I put it on the longest shipping option as possible. Like if it says one week or two weeks, that's what I pick. Every time. I mean, unless I like immediately need something, whatever. But like.

Michelle (34:08)

that's smart.

That's actually really smart.

You need it. You'll use it when you need it.

Marc Sklar (34:18)

Yeah, but like in general, I use the longer shipping option because I'm trying to retrain their minds to be like, it's not here yet. Okay, we'll come. It's not, it's not the end of the world, right? It will arrive. and usually Amazon gives you a little benefit for that delay, by the way. Yeah.

Michelle (34:36)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. It's a little cheaper. That's really smart. That is actually really, really smart. And then you can put things in one box. So it also is good for the environment. So when it comes to recurrent pregnancy loss, because you'd mentioned you're talking about chemical pregnancies and what are some of the common factors that you've seen clinically?

Marc Sklar (34:46)

Yeah, and good for the environment.

Yeah.

Yeah, so chemical pregnancy could be a little bit different, but if we're talking about, you know, reoccurring pregnancy laws or, you know, multiple miscarriages, then the, there are four buckets that I put things into. The first bucket is one we have to look at and analyze, but one we potentially can't do much about, which is genetics, right? Is there some sort of genetic abnormality that's occurring potentially?

Michelle (35:24)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (35:30)

due to my genetics or the combination of mine with my partners and what's that going on. I might end up with five causes actually now that I think about it. The next one is autoimmune issues. I find this is a huge reason for reoccurring pregnancy loss. will say also I find this is a big reason for secondary fertility issues.

Michelle (35:41)

Hey, good.

Marc Sklar (35:59)

with recurrent pregnancy loss. So secondary meaning you've been successful with the pregnancy one time or multiple times, and then at some point you're trying again and you're not successful, but in this case you've had, let's just say a loss. And so I would say I find that autoimmune issues are much more common in that situation because something happened in one of the previous pregnancies or postpartum that caused some sort of autoimmune issue that has triggered this outcome or contributed to this outcome.

Michelle (36:26)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (36:28)

Another one is blood clotting factors, that there is some sort of, you know, some issue, whether that's genetic or not, because it doesn't have to be genetic, that is contributing to more clotting factors that doesn't allow for that embryo to implant properly, and you could have a miscarriage. So that's three. Four, uterine issues.

That could be wide, that could be like a bigger bubble that doesn't get talked about as frequently. So what's going on in implantation that might be contributing to that? Is there an infection, a virus, a bacteria? Is there inflammation? Is there endometriosis? What is going on inside the uterine cavity and with the endometrium that could be causing this pregnancy or multiple pregnancies to not be able to be held?

And then the last one, which is male factor. So 50 % of all miscarriages are male factor related. Most typically in those, it's going to be some sort of DNA fragmentation issue. So the DNA of the sperm has been compromised in some way and that's contributing to that loss. That's the one that unfortunately we don't talk about as much because, like why would a male...

Michelle (37:43)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (37:57)

contribute to the miscarriage, you know, and they're not carrying. So that one gets ignored, but something that needs to be ruled out. So those are the, I said four, but really five, those are the five reasons that, you we should look at.

Michelle (38:10)

Yeah, for sure. And also the microbiome, know vaginal microbiome can impact a lot.

Marc Sklar (38:14)

Yeah, so that I look at that in that fourth one with the uterine environment. So to me, that microbiome is a piece that I look at when I'm evaluating that. Yeah.

Michelle (38:23)

Yeah. And I feel like, I feel like they should always look at that, like before transfers. mean, cause people are paying so much money. And I know in Spain, it's more commonplace for them to give vaginal, suppositories for, probiotics. And I feel like it would really be very helpful for a lot of people.

Marc Sklar (38:33)

Yep.

Great.

Yeah, I've started running that test much more frequently in the last year. And I can't say I run it for everybody because at some point I'm just balancing cost of things, right? Like we could run every test under the sun. It's just like, it's a matter of cost. But certainly if I see implantation failure, if I see chemical pregnancies, you know, these are the sorts of things that for sure I'll start to look at.

Michelle (38:48)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Chris. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, we could talk for hours, I love that we talked about, first of all, it's really interesting just to get your take on things and to hear from another person who's doing the same thing, But also, you know, I love the fact that you were talking about the energetics of it, because I think that when you do this long enough, you start to see patterns and you could start to see how emotions can really constrict the chi, you know, from our perspective.

Marc Sklar (39:38)

Yeah, sure.

Michelle (39:39)

So I think that that is really important because yes, we could look at all the little details and the numbers and the stats, but the energetics aspect, we can get so kind of like focused on the small parts. And then sometimes it's good to kind of go zoom back and see the bigger picture. So I thought what you said about that to me was very, very powerful.

Marc Sklar (40:01)

Yeah, all of these things, like everything we talked about today is so valuable for those individuals who need that specific message, right? Like we're all in a different place and we all have our own journey, but hopefully, you know, the messages we shared today and the information we shared today really resonated with those who are listening.

Michelle (40:10)

Yeah.

I'm sure they did for sure. mean, was a really valuable information. So it's been great having you back, Dr. Sklar. It's been too long and we should do this every so often because I feel like we're never going to really run out of things to talk about. Thank you so much for coming on.

Marc Sklar (40:34)

I agree. I'm happy to be on any time. Yeah,

Yeah, I appreciate it and wishing everyone success on their journeys.

EP 314 Does This Innovative Treatment Offer Hope for Fertility? | Dr. Jeff Gross

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I speak to Dr. Jeff Gross, a top Neurosurgeon who has a background specializing in athletic injuries and spine procedures. Dr. Jeff shares his journey from spinal neurosurgery to the forefront of regenerative medicine, focusing on the transformative potential of stem cells and exosomes. He explains the science behind stem cells, their applications in treating joint degeneration, and their role in anti-aging and fertility. Dr. Jeff also discusses the regulatory landscape, the cost of treatments, and the exciting future of stem cell research, including innovative approaches to enhance mitochondrial function which has a lot of promise when it comes to egg and sperm health.

Takeaways

• Stem cells can be used to treat various conditions, including inflammation.

• Accumulation of inflammation is a key factor in aging and conception challenges.

• Exosomes may play a significant role in the benefits of stem cell therapy.

• Regenerative medicine is evolving rapidly, with new research emerging.

• The cost of stem cell treatments can vary but is becoming more accessible.

• Stem cells are sourced from well-regulated donor programs in the US.

• Direct injection of stem cells may yield higher doses than IV administration.

• Future research may explore the use of exosomes in fertility treatments.

• Dr. Jeff emphasizes the importance of personalized treatment plans. 

Guest Bio:

Dr. Jeffrey Gross graduated from the University of California, Berkeley with a degree in biochemistry and molecular cell biology. He earned his Doctor of Medicine in 1992 from the George Washington University School of Medicine. He contributed to virology research during his studies. After graduating, he undertook a residency in neurological surgery at the University of California, Irvine Medical Center until 1997. He then pursued a Fellowship and Chief Residency in Spinal Biomechanics at the University of New Mexico until 1999. Licensed in California and Nevada, Dr. Gross has SPINE practices in Orange County and Henderson, Nevada. A trained neurological surgeon, he specializes in athletic injuries and spine procedures, and offers longevity and biohacking consultations. He achieved board certification by the American Board of Neurological Surgery and is a member of several prestigious medical societies. He has written textbooks and articles in his area of expertise and is a peer-reviewer for the state of California and a scientific journal. Since 2020, Top Doctor recognized Dr. Gross as a leading Neurological Surgeon. He also received HealthTap’s 2022 Top Doctor Award as a top Neurological Surgeon in the U.S. Dr. Gross founded ReCELLebrate, focusing on anti-aging and regenerative medicine. The mission for ReCELLebrate emphasizes offering modern biochemical treatments and considering surgery as a last resort.

Websites:

https://recellebrate.com/

https://www.instagram.com/recellebrate/

https://www.tiktok.com/@recellebrate

https://www.youtube.com/@stemcellwhisperer

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffrey-gross-md-5605605/

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Jeff.

Dr. Jeff (00:03)

Thank you so much for having me. Nice to see you.

Michelle (00:06)

Nice to see you as well. So you definitely have a very long, impressive background. So I'd love for you to share your story on how you got to really to the anti-aging stem cells work that you do, So I'd love to just get a quick background so the listeners can hear.

Dr. Jeff (00:26)

Sure, thank you for that. It was by accident of sorts, maybe directed accident because I was practicing as a spinal neurosurgeon, taking care mainly of neck and back trouble, some other neurological issues, nerve problems, things like that. But my practice was highly consultative, a lot of opinions, second opinions. I was seeing patients who had neck and back problems that were perhaps...

mistreated or not fully treated elsewhere. And I was kind of, I was kind of a catchall for that. But my patients came to me one at a time. And these are patients that had tried different things and they just didn't work adequately. Like physical therapy, like anti-inflammatories, like rest, like, you know, chiropractic, acupuncture, maybe spinal epidural injections or things like that.

And they'd come in and say, well, you know, help for a minute, but just wasn't enough. I'm still having a lot of trouble with my neck or back or pinch nerve or whatever. And I say, well, the next thing on the menu is to talk about surgical options. And they'd say, well, I'm not that bad. So wait a minute. Okay, good. Cause I was hoping you would say you're not ready for that. Cause I really didn't want to offer that to you. Cause I've always been on the slow to operate side of things. So, a lot of them would say, well, how about lasers or how about.

Michelle (01:37)

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Dr. Jeff (01:52)

herbs or how about cannabis or how about stem cells? And I heard the stem cell one more than once and chance favors the prepared mind. So my undergraduate background is in molecular cell biology, which is kind of the stem cell, know, root of stem cell biology. And, you know, when you get whisked off from undergraduate to med school and residency and practice,

you don't really get to apply that cool science. So the nerd part of me took over and said, I wonder what's happened in all these years since I went to undergraduate, you know? So instead of going to the Stodgy Neurosurgeon Convention every year, or more than one, where the same people pat themselves on the back for saying the same things for decades, I decided I'm going to open my mind and start going to stem cell and regenerative medicine meetings.

Michelle (02:46)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jeff (02:46)

So I can offer this to my spine patients. So I did that and I not only brought back a new tool to offer them, but it blossomed into so much more. You can't get access to regenerative medicine, stem cell medicine, and I'm using those phrases sort of interchangeably here, and not say, I'll help your knee or your ankle or your shoulder or your...

autoimmune issues or other hyper inflamed states. Or, you you read more and you see accumulation of inflammation is really the aging process. And if you can fight against inflammation accumulating, you're fighting against aging. So the whole anti-aging umbrella opened up and here I am, you know, six years later where spinal medicine is only a small percentage of my practice and I love it.

Michelle (03:33)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

That's great. So, so for people listening, some people might be like, okay, I kind of heard about stem cells, but what exactly are they? So just for people listening for the first time, we're really not understanding that aspect of like what they are. Cause we hear about it a lot. And over the years, like you said, stem cell research has really drastically changed and has gone into so many different things. Sometimes we hear about like

Dr. Jeff (03:45)

So.

Yeah.

Michelle (04:12)

you know, back in the day about them growing a liver, like, you know, the possibility of growing organs through stem cells. for people who are really new to this, I would love for you to break it down.

Dr. Jeff (04:15)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

sure, let's do stem cell 101. That's great. and being a fertility podcast, this is relevant probably more than any other area of medicine because fertility and creating an embryo is, you know, creating a group of stem cells that divide and grow into a fetus who's made of all stem cells, right? And then,

Michelle (04:28)

Hahaha

Right.

Dr. Jeff (04:54)

then that fetus is born and it's a baby and the baby grows for 18, 20, 25 years, whatever. And that growth requires stem cells. And then after that, an adult has to maintain, has to replace, has to restore, has to regenerate and that requires stem cells. So what are these? They are cells from which other cells arise, from which other cells stem from. Okay? So, and they are...

Michelle (05:20)

Mm.

Dr. Jeff (05:24)

They are powerful because there are different types, right? We throw out the phrase stem cells, but when you're a one cell or a two cell or a four cell embryo, you have these omnipotent cells. They can form any part of your body. They are amazingly powerful. As those divide and differentiate, meaning take on some specific characteristics, they become less powerful and more directed, and those are called pluripotent.

And a pluripotent might be able to regrow a limb. And as you, as you, and many of your listeners probably know, there are certain species that can still do that. Like a starfish, you cut off a leg of a starfish, it can regrow it. Or a tail of a lizard or a limb of an axolotl, which is a strain iguana like creature from Mexico. So there are many examples in biology where these pluripotent stem cells can be called upon. And you mentioned maybe regrowing a liver someday.

that will probably require some knowledge of pluripotent stem cells, which are being looked at. However, after these stem cells sort of retain, we bank them in our body as adults, those are called multipotent. So they can't regrow a limb, they can't regrow an organ per se, although they can replace some organ cells and regenerate. And you were always replacing cells, we're replacing skin cells and

you know, hair follicles and all kinds of things that require stem cells. If you have an injury and you cut yourself, you, require stem cells to help come repair that. and you know, we make new blood cells all the time that requires stem cells in our bone marrow. So we are using our stem cells. This is not new. We just know more about it now. And the whole move in regenerative medicine is, is to take

Michelle (07:03)

Mm.

Dr. Jeff (07:19)

a lesson from that biology and use it strategically to help somebody do something they need.

Michelle (07:27)

So interesting. So give us a couple of examples on how it works in the body. Like for somebody who needs it, for example, whereas like a therapy.

Dr. Jeff (07:34)

Well, the-

Right. So the low hanging fruit as an example, are joint degeneration. Also called arthritis or osteoarthritis vaguely, or some people it's called bone on bone if it's bad enough. Right. And these are your painful joints. It could be from an old injury, an old arthroscopic surgery. It could be from just, you know, accumulated wear and tear. And this is a problem with the joints where the cartilage

is, you know, down and the joint is painful. You can't use it as well stiffness, et cetera. And it slows people down. And when you slow people down, particularly in their older years, they're less mobile and then they can't maintain their bones, their bone density, AKA, you know, the one way to fight osteoporosis is weight bearing exercise. So if you can't, if your joints hurt, you're not going to do it. And muscle mass, cause both bone density and muscle mass are correlated with longevity. So if you keep moving.

You maintain your muscles and bones, you'll live longer statistically. So in any event, we want to preserve joints. And that's kind of why I got into this field. I'm a structural guy of the spine and it easily extrapolates to the other joints. And most of the research, the well-published research comes from knees and other joints. And just parenthetically, most of the good published research that we follow, because we're not just shooting from the hip here.

We do shoot some hips, but it comes from Asia and Europe. The United States is behind, although we can do these things. And, you know, we can talk about that later, but the short of it is we have a really good track record of helping people with degenerated joints in reducing pain and improving function. And we do have some examples with where we've done some MRIs.

Michelle (09:09)

Ha ha ha!

Dr. Jeff (09:37)

before and after and the after MRIs have shown some regrowth of like knee cartilage, for example, and things like that. you know, we're not allowed to make any claims because we're not yet approved for marketing claims, but I can show examples and I have to say like you invest in stocks, know, past performance does not guarantee future results or something like that, but in medicine, never, yeah, yeah.

Michelle (10:01)

Right, and each person is different and unique. Yeah.

Dr. Jeff (10:05)

But anyway, it's better, listen, if you want to try to avoid a joint replacement surgery, it's worth looking into. So whether it's spine or joints, so that's the easy stuff. Low hanging fruit, I call it. The other stuff is anything with an inflammatory problem in your body can potentially have benefits from regenerative medicine on its face being a natural anti-inflammatory. So for example, autoimmune problems with hyperinflammation.

You know, like rheumatoid arthritis, thyroiditis, inflammatory bowel syndromes, MS, things that have an inflammatory component. Also, most diseases of aging are diseases of inflammation. So coronary artery disease, Alzheimer's, things like this, all have an inflammatory component. And this allows me to overlap into your area is there are some causes of fertility.

issues that have an inflammatory component, whether it's a uterine issue or ovarian failure. And sometimes fighting that inflammation, whether it's through lifestyle changes, diet, exercise, mindfulness, sleep, reducing mental stress, all those things can help reduce the inflammation and help potentially lead to successful pregnancy. The same can go for use of

regenerative biologics like stem cells, and they're not the only thing we use. And there are wonderful publications. And before we got on this, I refreshed my knowledge by doing a little homework. And there are even newer publications on use of these things to improve fertility. Now, most of these are from China because they are way ahead of us. But that doesn't mean they can't be applied here outside of China.

Michelle (12:01)

Interesting. So interesting. So how do they get these stem cells?

Dr. Jeff (12:07)

So stem cells and other related biologic material in the US comes from a well-regulated donor program. Typically the donors are women who are planning to have a C-section. Some of the labs even recruit the donors in the first trimester, make sure they're having a healthy pregnancy, they're not using substances they shouldn't be using, they take their prenatal vitamins, they're not in any high-risk behaviors.

And at the time of the C-section, they simply, and once the mother is congratulated with her new baby, they take the amniotic fluid, they take the umbilical cord, they take the placenta and they put them on ice in a sterile fashion and they go to an FDA compliant certified lab that can test and screen the materials, make sure there's nothing in there, no diseases, no problems, and then make it available to clinics and end users like myself.

So there are myths that all kinds of crazy stuff are happening out there, but not here in the US. We use highly regulated donor processes.

Michelle (13:19)

When you have the stem cells from donors, can they be multiplied or is it just like a finite amount? Whatever is there is there.

Dr. Jeff (13:28)

They can be, there are labs that put them in culture, would let them grow and divide and that's one thing that can be done. Now, just like anything, a copy of a copy of a copy tends to lose its vitality. So, things like telomere length, which is an aging marker, that changes with each division of a cell. So I don't like to use a divided material.

Michelle (13:50)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jeff (13:58)

I use just fresh first pass stuff. Maybe your listeners are a little young for this, but there's a really funny movie called Multiplicity, where Michael Keaton clones himself, and each clone is a little bit wonkier than the original. if you want a good laugh, yeah, check out that movie. But in short, I prefer the actual native original self.

Michelle (14:15)

Comedy used to be so much better.

Right. Got it. Is this similar to cord blood, you know, when they, when the baby's born and they say, do you, you know, you can opt to do that and then store

Dr. Jeff (14:27)

When we do self,

Yeah, let's tap into that for just a second and unpack it if it's okay. know, historically you would be offered to donate or not donate, but store your umbilical cord. And the purpose of that was, God forbid your child gets leukemia in seven years, you have a matched set of cells that they culture, they do divide.

Michelle (15:01)

Mm-hmm. Right.

Dr. Jeff (15:02)

and replace the child's bone marrow, you don't have to worry about a donor or a match. Now you can do that and you can also use, in some labs we'll use those umbilical cord cells as a source for any other future purpose, whether it's a joint problem or what have you, they're now doing that. In fact, you can use that for family members as well. So the reasons for a bank in your umbilical cord, and they probably won't tell you in the pamphlet, because it's not yet approved for marketing claims.

Michelle (15:19)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jeff (15:31)

is much more than just, you know, just in case there's a case of leukemia, you need a full bone marrow replacement.

Michelle (15:39)

So interesting. how, when you do have the stem cells, first of all, it must cost a fortune, it sounds like, it's limited. It's not something that you, because you're depending on donors.

Dr. Jeff (15:52)

No, well, there's a little bit more to it. And that, and I keep using the phrase stem cells and other biologics. Let's, let's talk about other biologics for a minute because some of these other biologics are less expensive and here in the U S it's, it's affordable. You don't have to necessarily leave the country and go to go to central America or, you know, Hong Kong to get this or Europe. A lot of the professional athletes historically went to Europe, but they're, they're getting it here, here in the U S too.

Michelle (15:59)

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

that's good.

Dr. Jeff (16:22)

But we found out that if we gave you stem cells, let's say you came over and I hooked up an IV and we gave you stem cells, in 10 to 14 days, those would be out of your system. However, the benefits would go on for weeks or months or even some of the benefits would be prolonged. So why is that? If the stem cells are gone, what's going on? Well, it turns out the stem cells aren't really doing all the work. The stem cells are delivering cell to cell communicating and influential

Michelle (16:31)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jeff (16:52)

biomolecules, peptides, growth factors, small RNAs from cell, from the stem cells to your cells, reinvigorating and activating your cells to do that work. And those, those communication packets are called extracellular vesicles or for short exosomes. And you may have seen this, a lot of estheticians use them. You know, they can do the atom to your microneedle facial.

Michelle (17:11)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jeff (17:20)

It's sort of an advanced vampire facial with these exosomes. So the exosomes are probably doing most of the work that the stem cells were doing. And there are advantages. They penetrate tissue better. They're easier to store and handle. They'll cross the blood brain barrier if you want them in your brain and nervous system. And they're less than half the price of stem cells. So we can do things that used to cost, you know, 20, $30,000 out of this country.

for less than half of that here, because the big cost is the materials, these biologics. So what does it cost was your original question, but now that you know we're using these exosomes preferentially in a lot of these cases. And by the way, as an aside, all stem cells, sorry, start over, all cells make exosomes. We're using stem cell derived exosomes from amniotic fluid, which is quite abundant. So there are really no cells in this.

Michelle (18:11)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jeff (18:19)

There's no matching that needs to be done. and it's, it's wonderful. So, the, you know, for example, treating a knee, if we're trying to repair a knee, help someone heal a knee, we're asking their cells to do the work. We're just providing the, the, the re-instruction to tap back into the original factory that made that joint in the first place. And something that like that is kind of two doses of biologics, one above one below the knee.

the injection, the facility and everything where we do it as sterile. All that is, you know, in the nine to 12,000, depending on what we're doing. So it's not, it's not crazy. And IVs, if we do an IV, that's anywhere from like 4,000 to 8,500, depending on the dose.

Michelle (18:54)

Mm-hmm.

And how many times would somebody have to do that?

Dr. Jeff (19:07)

Maybe once. Usually the joints are one and done and then they go back to their normal wear and tear. So is it possible someone's going to come back in in 20 years and need it again maybe, but that's okay. We follow a French protocol that has published 15 year follow-up and we follow that protocol how they do it. And they've had over 82 % of the patients had wonderful results at the 15 year mark. We're waiting for them to publish the 20 year mark.

Michelle (19:10)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jeff (19:35)

So we're not making this up. We're just duplicating what's already been done and good science that's out there.

Michelle (19:42)

And for inflammatory conditions, autoimmune conditions, or even fertility, well, you know, because it's secondary to that a lot of times. Do you use IV? So really get it right into the bloodstream. Okay.

Dr. Jeff (19:51)

Right, right.

Yeah, I would definitely. yeah. Yeah. And that's how we approach anti-aging anyway. People are biohackers, anti-agers that come in. This is what we do. And we, we do an IV. We, we try to figure out a dose that makes sense for that person based on the budget and their age and maybe their inflammatory markers and their blood tests and other things. And then we see how long it lasts. And some people get a year, two years. Some people get, you know, six months.

Some people come in preventively and do every three months a lower dose. just, we customize it for the individual.

Michelle (20:33)

And that crosses the blood brain barrier. So it's good for brain health, really for just everything. The system.

Dr. Jeff (20:37)

Yeah. Anywhere there's an inflammatory burden, we'll do it. But exosomes do cross the blood-brain barrier. And let me go off script here for a second. For listeners that have been pregnant before, in later trimesters, a pregnant woman has glowing skin and her hair is growing wonderfully. And typically, there's not a lot of joint pain, maybe

Michelle (20:43)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jeff (21:06)

low back pain from carrying the weight, why is that woman in, you know, not having this great skin and all that, it's because that woman is getting a daily dose of stem cell derived exosomes because they also not only cross the blood brain barrier, they cross the placental barrier. So what we do is almost simulate that in a single dose.

Michelle (21:25)

Mm-hmm. Got it.

That's so interesting. in that case, when you are doing IV, is that also one and done?

Dr. Jeff (21:37)

No, like I was saying, it depends on what benefits someone gets and for how long they last. It could be depending on the person's need. Now, if it's someone who's got an inflammatory problem and they're just trying to get pregnant, could be a one and done. If it's someone that has benefited from it and wants to do it repetitively, then we would help support that and make it available.

Michelle (21:43)

I see.

Mm-hmm. Done.

Have you heard of this being used and injected directly into like uterus or those areas or is it typically more like IV?

Dr. Jeff (22:11)

So not into the uterus, although there are examples in men of injecting the testes where they're not producing adequate sperm counts. I think IV would be a first. So I didn't read anything about ovarian injection yet. Could that be coming? Possibly. IV is obviously an easier thing to do. So I would try the IV first. But you're right, you're going to get a higher dose if you inject directly.

Michelle (22:20)

Mm-hmm.

Or ovaries maybe?

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jeff (22:40)

That might be something to look at. haven't done it. We do have some sexual health shots we do at the exosomes now where we do P shots and O shots for men and women respectively for improvement in sensation, lubrication, that kind of.

Michelle (22:53)

Mm-hmm.

I know that they do PRP with the ovaries and I think also uterus. So that's why I was asking because it's kind of similar, you doesn't have the same exact substance, but it's the idea of stimulating.

Dr. Jeff (23:14)

No, I completely agree with that. PRP is basically a very lower, it's the lowest end self-donated regenerative medicine. And it probably contains some cells and some exosomes in there.

Michelle (23:21)

Mm-hmm. Right.

So interesting. that's really fascinating. for you specifically, like if people wanted to work with you, do they have to come visit you, your office, where you are?

Dr. Jeff (23:38)

Not necessarily. So, you know, most of what we do, we start out remotely. The vast majority of my patients come from somewhere other than Las Vegas, where I'm located, actually Henderson, Nevada, which is a suburb of Las Vegas. Most people start remotely. We do a lot of the blood tests or if they need MRIs or what have you remotely, and we only invite them to come to town if there's a reason to come to town. We do have some other colleagues in other parts of the states too that can do IVs.

things like that so we can sometimes refer. Yeah.

Michelle (24:09)

Mm-hmm. It's really fascinating. It seems like state of the art. It's like the new thing that's coming out.

Dr. Jeff (24:13)

and

It's a, and there are things coming. if you'll allow me to just jump there for a second. you know, we are working on some projects here at, at my practice. one of them involves exosomes that are stuffed with extra mitochondria. And for those of you that don't know, that's a small part within the cell. It's kind of a cell within the cell. we learned in high school biology, it was the powerhouse of the cell. made the energy, but it actually does much more.

Michelle (24:22)

of course. Yeah.

Hmm

Dr. Jeff (24:46)

And some causes of infertility relate to poor mitochondrial activity in the cells of the ovaries and things like that. So we're looking at exosomes that could be overstuffed with, that can donate more mitochondria. So that could be very useful. There are many other reasons to do that as well. And then we're even involved in a project that may be useful to help patients with cancer. And this is a particular exosome.

that comes from a certain type of immune cell, a T cell in our body, whose job is to identify, circulate around the body, identify, and then selectively remove or kill an abnormal cell like a cancer cell. So imagine that as an augmentative therapy or even as a preventative. Yeah, so we're hot on that trail. That's coming soon to a, to a re-celebrate clinic near you.

Michelle (25:36)

That's fantastic.

I love that. That's awesome. That's really amazing. And what have you seen so far in regards to fertility? you seen people do this treatment and it work? with fertility, there's so many different reasons for why. I mean, it could be so many different. It's really a range of underlying conditions, but what have you noticed so far?

Dr. Jeff (26:03)

Correct. So honestly, I don't have a fertility practice that's pretty far afield from what I do. I do a lot of structural work, a lot of joints, a lot of spine. We do some autoimmune and a few other things. But I have talked to colleagues, fertility specialists in the past, and we've talked about exosomes. I was at a biohacking conference in Texas last year.

Michelle (26:11)

Yeah.

Dr. Jeff (26:32)

the Dave Asprey event and someone came up to me and asked me about fertility. So I know it's on my radar. It's just not something we put out there necessarily. had one gentleman that had low sperm count. We had talked about doing something for him, but he didn't do it yet.

Michelle (26:34)

Mm-hmm.

But have you seen or through colleagues or any studies that have shown even just IV, doing this with IV that it's helped?

Dr. Jeff (27:00)

I've only read the abstract of some of the Chinese studies because we don't always get the full article translated. But most of those studies speak to direct injection. They have a lot of animal studies. So I don't have information on the clinical use of...

Michelle (27:07)

Okay.

Dr. Jeff (27:25)

exosomes personally for fertility, but I know that others have talked to me about it. So it's being done. And I, I did look it up online before we met today and you can actually find, there was a clinic in Europe that was advertising it for this purpose for fertility. Yeah.

Michelle (27:31)

Mm-hmm.

Interesting. Yeah, which I'm sure people don't really have to go all the way to Europe. I'm sure also if you get the IV and your body's going through this anti-aging and your mitochondria are benefiting and also, which is very much linked to aging eggs. So you want to like revitalize and reawaken and also lower inflammation that also helps with egg quality and sperm quality.

Dr. Jeff (27:54)

and

Michelle (28:08)

So this is just definitely something that I found when I saw you, I was like, this is really interesting. I think that it's something that people should be hearing about. And I'm sure I wouldn't be surprised if in the future, a lot of fertility clinics are going to start looking into this as well.

Dr. Jeff (28:26)

Yeah, no, the one that was advertising is an international fertility group, I think, in Eastern Europe. And they specifically have a webpage on this. Now, we can't have those webpages here in the US because we are not yet approved for marketing claims.

Michelle (28:32)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Right.

It's so interesting how all that works. But yeah, this is great. This is a really interesting topic and really great information. I love like cutting edge stuff. I love that it's kind of like to be continued because you're still like, You already have learned so much, but of course, there's so much more coming, which is exciting. I find it really exciting.

Dr. Jeff (29:00)

Yeah.

I do too. have this renewed interest. know, I'm, I'm a self admitted nerd. So this is, gets me back into things that are very exciting. I don't get to do the same thing day after day anymore. that's, that's.

Michelle (29:19)

I love that.

Yeah, for sure. So awesome. So for people who want to learn more about you and what you do, how can they find you?

Dr. Jeff (29:30)

Check out Re-Celebrate because you're celebrating the renewal of your cells. That's spelled R-E-C-E-L-L-E-B-R-A-T-E. And that is our website is recelebrate.com. Instagram is recelebrate at recelebrate it. LinkedIn, Pinterest, YouTube, but just type in recelebrate, you'll find it.

Michelle (29:52)

Awesome. And you'll find it also in the episode notes. So I'll share all the links in there, as well as information about Dr. Jeff. So this is a great conversation. This is really, really great. And I appreciate you coming on and explaining it so nicely and really breaking it down for us, you know, people that don't have that background. So thank you so much for coming on today, Dr. Jeff.

Dr. Jeff (30:03)

Yeah.

you

It's been my pleasure, thank you for having me.

EP 313 Is Your Immune System Getting in the Way of Conceiving Your Baby? Caryn Johnson

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Caryn Johnson of @_bondlife shares her personal journey through infertility, detailing her struggles with unexplained infertility and the eventual discovery of autoimmune issues affecting her reproductive health. She emphasizes the importance of understanding the immune system's role in fertility and the impact of lifestyle factors such as diet, stress, and environmental toxins. Caryn advocates for women to take charge of their health by educating themselves and seeking out supportive healthcare practitioners. She also discusses her supplement line, Bond, which aims to address these issues holistically.

Takeaways

• Caryn's journey began with unexplained infertility.

• She experienced multiple failed IVF attempts.

• The immune system plays a crucial role in fertility.

• Many women with unexplained infertility have underlying immune issues.

• Stress and lifestyle factors significantly impact reproductive health.

• Gut health is linked to fertility and autoimmune conditions.

• Caryn's research led her to create a supplement line, Bond.

• Advocacy and education are essential for women facing infertility.

• Environmental toxins can affect fertility outcomes.

• Women should empower themselves with knowledge about their health.

Guest Bio:

Caryn Johnson is the Co-Founder and CEO of BOND, an innovative line of supplements reimagining hormone and reproductive health, inspired by her experience with infertility. The former Vital Proteins Chief Marketing Officer launched BOND in the Fall of 2023, fusing her professional expertise with her passion to help women take a more proactive and empowered approach to caring for their cycle and reproductive health.

In 2017, when trying to start a family, Caryn learned she was autoimmune infertile. What she discovered was a stark reality - the lack of open conversations and support for women facing similar struggles. The doctor's office often left much unsaid, and the information available was surprisingly scarce. Shocked by the limited support system in place, Caryn recognized the need for a change. She leaned on her industry knowledge and contacts to advocate for herself and uncover invaluable resources. Her personal journey became a catalyst for a larger mission to make her learnings accessible to women everywhere. It was this experience that led her to create BOND. 

A natural born innovator, Caryn is disrupting the marketplace with this new line of products that offers women the opportunity to take control of their reproductive health before it’s too late. BOND’s proprietary formulations, designed to preserve fertility potential and lay the foundation for a healthier body, feature science-backed ingredients that work together to balance hormones, protect egg health, and provide cycle support. With BOND, Caryn aims to address women’s health more holistically and encourage a more proactive conversation around reproductive wellness. 

Caryn’s career began in marketing and public relations where she worked with many notable beauty brands and PR firms before being recruited as the fifth employee at then startup, Vital Proteins. She was the first marketing hire at the organization and ultimately, became the company’s Chief Marketing Officer leading the team through the brand’s acquisition by Nestle Health Sciences. Following her tenure at Vital Proteins, Caryn took on the challenge of leading Owlet, a baby monitor company focused on preventing SIDS, where she served as Chief Marketing Officer and successfully guided the company through its initial public offering.

Caryn lives in Chicago with her husband and two children Elijah and Ruthie. 

You can use coupon code THEWHOLESOME for 20% off all products. https://bond.life

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Karin.

Caryn Johnson (00:02)

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Michelle (00:05)

It's so nice to meet you. And I know that you do a lot of amazing work helping women I also know that you have your own story that you can share. And I would love to hear your story and really what got you inspired to do the work that you're doing.

Caryn Johnson (00:21)

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm here to share really the start of how I got to where I am today. And that really is rooted in finding out that I couldn't get pregnant. So we can start there and then we can get into all of the details together. But my husband and I met when I was young, early 20s. And by the time we got married many years later, we were already

most right away to start having a family. There was a piece of me inside that knew that I was gonna have some sort of issue. I don't know, you already mentioned that you do visualizations to me before we started. So, you know, like I just had this feeling whether I manifested it for myself or not. I, you know, we did the full year of trying to get pregnant to no success and then went back to our doctor.

Michelle (01:03)

Yeah, yeah.

Caryn Johnson (01:18)

my typical OB-GYN and started the path of IUIs, did four IUIs, had beautiful eggs, each IUI, and reacted to the medicine quite well, but never got a positive from any of those. So we were recommended to move towards IVF. found a reproductive endocrinologist in Chicago, which is where I was located at the time.

started the path to IVF and went through the process of an egg retrieval. Ended up seeing similar to what we saw in the IUIs, which was that my reproductive system performed quite well. And I was able, they were able to retrieve just about 30 eggs from one retrieval, which is quite high, borderline too high, but.

just shows like the reaction to the medicine and the overall viability of my reproductive system. Of that, I had really normal odds and was able to bank close to 14, I believe, quality grade embryos. So I was really excited to move into implantation because at that point,

I just really thought like whatever was unexplained is just kind of, you know, over to the side now. you know, all these things are just working out in my favor. So this is gonna be, you know, it for me, which a lot of women I feel like go into IVF feeling like the IVF center is like the place where you get your baby, which isn't always true. So.

I started doing implantations and I started losing babies. Prior to that point, I had never even tested positive in any sort of like regard for a pregnancy test. And I wasn't one of those that, you know, jumped right off birth control, you know, to move into conception. I hadn't been on birth control for many, many, many, many years, you know, prior to this point. But the implantations started failing and

My doctor said, this embryo was only attached for two hours, maybe a couple of hours is what they said. I just thought, how on earth, like why on earth would something attach for just a couple of hours and then that be the situation where

It just doesn't work out from there. Like what is happening? And you know, got immediately, the immediate response was bad odds. You know, this happens, miscarriage happens. Just keep going. You know, one in four, in eight, you you get all the stats and there's definitely a piece of that when you're not working with really good quality embryos. But you know, I was, I knew that everything was genetically great. knew.

and had no reason to believe that my body wasn't in working order to, you know, produce a pregnancy. So I just started pushing harder and getting a little bit more more fearful of continuing down the path of losing babies because I just, it hit me so hard. Even the loss of two hours, I mean,

I just like, I've never felt sorrow like that. And I didn't, I just didn't feel like myself or really anyone should have to like continue down that path for like the sake of odds. So I started doing my own research and I was at the time experiencing some issues in my digestive system. I also now looking back had a definite cortisol issue.

which relates into the picture, but I was a CMO at Vital Proteins at the time, which is that blue tub collagen company. And so I had a high stress level and I knew that something was going on in my digestive system. This was, you know, 2016, 2015, 2016, 2017. So.

Michelle (05:39)

yeah.

Caryn Johnson (05:58)

almost prior to when we really started, you know, as a world, as a community talking about the microbiome and gut health. But I sought out a naturopath who ended up doing a blood panel on me and told me that I had, you know, hundreds of food sensitivities, which is a

a classic sign of gut dysbiosis, but at the time it wasn't translated back to like an issue in the microbiome. It was treated as like, yes, you have all of these, you have all of these issues with, you know, different foods, just avoid them. And that will be the solve versus, why do you have like, you know, why do you have a hundred things that you can't eat?

Michelle (06:42)

Hmm.

Caryn Johnson (06:46)

like watermelon seeds up to your typical gluten, et cetera. So I just started doing my own research online and I found a book called, Is My Body Baby Friendly? It's written by Dr. Alan Beer, who is now deceased, but it's over 700 pages of the science of how the immune system works with your reproductive system, your hormones, et cetera.

in order to effectively procreate or in order for conception and implantation to occur. And that's when I realized there was something greater going on in my body outside again of just my reproductive system that we just hadn't figured out yet. So I read the book Front to Back. It's a very science heavy book. So I had to do a lot of like

thinking about new terms and figuring and trying to remember what I was learning. At the end of the book, there was a recommendation at the time, there are more doctors now, but at the time for three doctors that practice this type of medicine, which is the field of reproductive immunology. And so,

Michelle (08:01)

Mm-hmm.

Caryn Johnson (08:03)

One of those doctors, Dr. Joanne Kwok-Kam of Rosalind Franklin ended up being in my backyard essentially 45 minutes away in the Chicago area. So I took that as a sign that I needed to call and get additional help above and beyond my RE who was doing the IVF. And I called over there and was immediately put on a six month wait list.

So proceeded with the next round of IVF because I was already on some hormones. So I was already going through the round. I had at that point only done my own research. So I wasn't really sure what was going on in my body or if I could believe what I had read because my doctors that were helping me with the IVF weren't really like saying that

They believed in the immunology side of things. They hadn't seen enough research, et cetera. So I wasn't really getting support on what I was researching. So it was around the holidays, October-ish, when I ended up calling into the clinic and I ended up getting a call right around

Thanksgiving that they had a cancellation and I got moved up on the wait list. So I ended up getting into the reproductive immunology clinic many months before they said I would two weeks before my next IVF transfer and that was just an awesome Hail Mary. They did a full ultrasound. So tip to toe thyroid, you know, your whole stomach area inside and outside.

And then they do the craziest blood panel that I've ever done. don't know how you can even draw that much blood, but vials and vials of blood to look at immune markers in addition to hormone markers, vitamin markers, and your typical blood panel. And they called me back 48 hours later and said, need to cancel this implantation. You have the highest level of antibodies that we've ever seen.

not that we've ever seen, but that we're able to track. So you're past like where the chart goes essentially. So if you proceed with your implantation, it's almost definitely gonna end in a miscarriage because your body is gonna fight it off. And at that point I was terrified because that was like the first real something's actually wrong with you that I had heard.

Michelle (10:21)

wow.

Wow.

Caryn Johnson (10:50)

Everything else was just unexplained, unexplained, unexplained. And I just went into shock. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know who to believe. You know, I had two sets of doctors saying different things. So I proceeded with the implantation and I ended up implanting both a boy and a girl embryo. And then

started treatment right away on my immune system through the reproductive immunologist. So what they did was they put me on a series of pretty intense medications to quiet my immune system. And then I did what is called IVIG, which are blood transfusions or infusions that essentially look

to wash your blood of the antibodies that are over protecting the immune system. So I went into this protocol and I ended up getting pregnant. It was positive right away. we saw, so the clinic ended up treating me one to three times a week with this IVIG infusion, which they're about two to three hours long based on, they're based on body weight.

Michelle (11:50)

Mm-hmm.

Caryn Johnson (12:14)

I was in their office, you know, at least one to two times a week, also for an ultrasound. So I knew by five weeks that both embryos had attached. you know, at that point, my immune markers were even more all over the place. We couldn't get my immune system to a stable level by any means. And I ended up losing the girl embryo at seven weeks.

her heartbeat slowed and then ultimately it stopped, which is one of the symptoms or issues when you have an autoimmune issue going into a pregnancy. So, you know, that was so sad and devastating and she was higher up in the womb than the boy embryo. So at that point,

It was pretty much 50-50 odds of if she was going to end up coming out and bringing him with her or if she was going to be what's called a vanishing twin, which is when your body reabsorbs the pregnancy for the sake of the other pregnancy, which is really the best case scenario because then you don't lose the other baby.

Michelle (13:18)

my gosh.

Caryn Johnson (13:36)

I was put on bed rest. This was the start of my bed rest between six and seven weeks, which continued until I gave birth, basically. I was able to go to work, but that was pretty much it. And I lived in fear that we were going to lose a little boy, but I ended up reabsorbing the girl embryo. So she never came out and we just really aggressively treated my immune system.

which held on until 34 weeks when I went into basically how the immune system works during the pregnancy is during the first trimester, there is more inflammation that can be in the body and then it has to subside for the second trimester to continue successfully and then your inflammation increases and that's

eventually causes or is part of why you go into labor. But my inflammation and my immune system increased really fast. my water broke early and I ended up having him, you know, early but he was healthy because some of the immune medications included steroids. So he was a little bit bigger than, you know, your typical

34, 35 weaker. But I was able to carry my son and that really started my story of what the heck happened and why is autoimmunity so under researched when it comes to your reproduction and your fertility chances and how can I actually do more now that I have my children here.

Michelle (15:06)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Caryn Johnson (15:33)

to support other women so they don't have to go through this amount of trauma, right? But also this amount of like research and advocacy for themselves because at the end of the day, like we just can't expect that from everyone and we shouldn't. We should be able to support. Yeah, so I'll take a breath there.

Michelle (15:40)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Wow, that's incredible story. And I mean, it's it's mind boggling, you know, that, nobody really talks about something that is so prevalent. And I do see that a lot, actually. And it could be the reason why you have unexplained infertility or why transfers don't work. And I speak to Amy Ralph, Amy Ralph, she's a

Caryn Johnson (16:19)

Yeah.

Michelle (16:20)

she does the same thing, Chinese medicine. And she talks about this a lot. She says, if you miscarry or you have repeated transfer failures with a good embryo and your doctor doesn't look into like what your lining is doing and how your immune system is working, then go to a different doctor because it's so important to look into that because you could spend so much time.

and you can spend so much money and just so many precious years going through so much loss for something that could be treated but can also be prevented. So I'd love to actually get your input on what you've discovered and how the gut relates to it but maybe other things that you've noticed or learned for the listeners.

Caryn Johnson (16:59)

Absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think what you're saying is just incredibly important. Like the immune system, I feel like is the secret starting point to a lot of issues. And what's happening in medicine right now is a lot of women are walking away with an unexplained infertility diagnosis, but they're accepting that as a diagnosis, right? When it's not, it's just, it's not an answer.

And if you look underneath kind of that answer, you see a lot of crazy statistics, such as over 65 % of women who have unexplained infertility actually have an issue in their immune system. And then similarly over 60 % have an issue in their metabolic system. So blood sugar, insulin, know, early signs of PCOS, et cetera. And then.

Michelle (18:05)

You

Caryn Johnson (18:10)

When you look, you see that there are deep, deep nutrient deficiencies happening in this group of women as well. So you're looking at vitamin D deficiencies, vitamin B deficiencies, magnesium, omegas. All of these start with modulations that occur in the immune system as well. So when you think about it on a deeper level and from the research that I've done,

Michelle (18:23)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Caryn Johnson (18:39)

you're looking at something that's happened to you before it's affecting your hormones and triggering one of these other issues in your reproductive system. So like for instance, not only do I have, you know, autoimmune infertility, I do carry PCOS and adenomyosis as well. And for me, and based on the research that I've done, those are secondary factors.

to my immune system modulating and creating an overly inflammatory environment in my body, which then produced those issues. So we're not going up far enough in the chain of our bodies as to understanding our full systems. And again, it kind of goes back to like what's happening in medicine, which is that our doctors are

Classically trained in our reproductive organs, right? So they know our uterus they know our ovaries they understand how those work, but we need to get into you know, a new phase where we have Practitioners that understand how all of the systems are working together in our body Including our immune system and our endocrine system because they do have such a big and almost starting impact

Michelle (19:57)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Caryn Johnson (20:07)

on what's happening with our fertility.

Michelle (20:10)

yeah, I completely agree. And I also I'm wondering, like, what have you seen? Because I think that when you talked about the food sensitivities, you were saying that it's okay, I'm allergic to so many things, or I'm sensitive to so many things, but why? So like, what are the things that you've seen that cause it to begin with?

Caryn Johnson (20:28)

Yeah.

Yeah. So there are a couple of things that I see as a starting factors. One is overall stress. So if you can't keep your stress in check, you can't keep your cortisol levels in check, then your adrenal function will not perform in the rest of your hormones will not function correctly, which then trickles into some of these other problems. and then you get into other factors like what you're putting in your body.

the nutrition that you have or you don't have. They're saying the American diet is still between 60 and 80 % processed food. So we're putting still mostly junk into our systems that's modulating and creating these environments that we don't want. Number three is dysbiosis of the gut, right? Which is a huge factor in

Michelle (21:13)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Caryn Johnson (21:31)

overall well-being and then your chances at fertility because what happens is that if your gut is in dysbiosis, your mucosal lining is disrupted and all of the toxins that are supposed to be in this like, think of it like pipe in your body, piped to get to the outside are now permeating that pipe and moving into your system and causing again, these major inflammation issues.

these, this uproar of immune response that is hard to counteract. You know, once you have that level of bacteria and then toxins that are entering the bloodstream. And then the last kind of reason that you would be kind of in this situation is just based on what's going on in your environment. So are you living in a city, you know,

that a lot of people in Detroit, for instance, there's a bigger rate of infertility there versus, you know, your non-city residents. It's also based on the toxins that enter your home. So are you getting rid of your plastics? Are you looking at the cleaning supplies you're using, the makeup you're putting on your face? It seems simple, but this toxic overload, again,

Michelle (22:52)

Mm-hmm.

Caryn Johnson (22:55)

creates this inflammatory response, which modulates your immune system. So those are really the four categories that kind of put you in this place. And then it kind of gets into epigenetics, which is like, you know, you've created this new world for yourself that your body has become. And, you know, is it going to be like that or are you going to be able to get yourself out of it?

Michelle (23:23)

Yeah. my God. It's so important and it's true. We hear all the different factors and actually those toxins and the endocrine disruptors can be found in food, I mean, through pesticides and that can also impact your gut dysbiosis. so it's just, it's like an entangled web and it really is like a reflection of how we're living today and what's allowed in this country, which

Caryn Johnson (23:38)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle (23:50)

I'm starting to get more and more frustrated with, you know, the fact that other countries are protecting their citizens more from chemicals and pesticides and things that are harming not only our health and chronic disease, also future. it's, it's unbelievable. And for that reason, I often tell people just go gluten free. It's not that.

Caryn Johnson (23:58)

Yeah.

Gosh, get me started on glyphosate. It's so sad.

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (24:16)

It's not that wheat is bad. And actually, as a matter of fact, a lot of people don't have those same responses if they go to Spain or Italy, even though it's not considered GMO, they have genetically modified it over the years. So there's so many aspects. So sometimes I'm just like, just remove it, And I see people feeling a lot better.

Caryn Johnson (24:26)

Right.

Yeah.

Michelle (24:41)

just from that, and especially with autoimmune conditions, actually that like going gluten free can really help. That's what I've seen.

Caryn Johnson (24:50)

Yeah, no, definitely. It's just our food source is really sad. And it's just, it's so hard to pinpoint at the end of the day because no one really has the exact answer. But I just like, you see the data, like women who are eating on a Mediterranean diet have a lower risk of endometriosis.

Michelle (24:55)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Caryn Johnson (25:15)

women who have like vitamin sources through green leafy vegetables don't have as much PMS. So like the correlations are there. It's just like, how do we get people to make better decisions for their body and understand like, don't be me, don't make bad decisions and then get into a position where you can't have the life that you wanted or dreamed of, or you have to fight so hard for it because

Michelle (25:16)

Right.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Caryn Johnson (25:43)

of choices you made earlier in your life from lack of knowledge, you know?

Michelle (25:47)

Right. Yeah, totally. And then I also look at the nervous system, which is what you're, I feel like it's really linked to the cortisol issue, like the high stress, because we're constantly being bombarded with too much information. Really, I think too much information that our nervous system is able to translate. And I think that takes a trickle down effect into our bodies. I'm very big on like mind body because of that, you know, like that, that's one aspect, but of course, I mean, there's so many

Caryn Johnson (26:02)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Michelle (26:16)

Like I said, it's like a web and every single piece matters. And that's what you were talking about before with medicine, looking at the body as a whole, as a functioning system, rather than just one part.

Caryn Johnson (26:21)

you

Right, right. And just going back to your comment on cortisol, you know, a lot of it does start with cortisol because if you put yourself into too high of a cortisol state, your body doesn't produce enough hormones. It basically triggers all of your other hormones to act inappropriately. It goes into your progesterone receptor.

Michelle (27:00)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Caryn Johnson (27:00)

pretends it's progesterone and then it goes on your thyroid and says slow down, slow down. Your body doesn't have enough energy for this and your thyroid slows. So it's really like easy to dismiss like, yeah, I'm so stressed but I don't have to be stressed today and to understanding like if your body is in a constant state of stress, like the impact it can truly have on your system and on your hormones because

Michelle (27:27)

Mm-hmm.

Caryn Johnson (27:30)

I guess also people think of like cortisol is like over here and then estrogen and progesterone as like over here because they work through different axes of the body, right? But it's all related because if you knock one off, you're messing with the others. So I just, I wish people ultimately would understand that cortisol is a huge starting factor to their fertility journey as well.

Michelle (27:38)

Mm-hmm.

Right. Yes.

Caryn Johnson (27:57)

and to a hormone journey if they're not on the road to fertility.

Michelle (28:02)

Yes, because ultimately the body's always going to favor survival. And when you're in high cortisol, your body's basically or something is signaling your body to let it know it's not safe. So when you're constantly in this state of feeling unsafe, your body's going to worry about other things and put off other factors that it would normally pay attention to when you do feel safe.

Caryn Johnson (28:08)

Yeah.

Right.

Michelle (28:32)

And being in this chronically is just not conducive to high vitality period.

Caryn Johnson (28:32)

Right.

Yeah, I feel like at least we're in a better state of mind, like as a world where, you know, 10 years ago it was chic and cool to be like chronically stressed and like drinking like three cups of coffee in the morning and like running yourself ragged. Like I feel like everyone understands a little bit more that they shouldn't. It's just about like knowing your body and actually being able to say to yourself like, no, this isn't how I should.

Michelle (28:52)

It's true. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.

Caryn Johnson (29:09)

be feeling. This isn't how I want to keep stress or maintain like my day-to-day life.

Michelle (29:17)

No doubt that we are getting educated like never before. like, it's, it's one of those things that when like the information comes out and we start to open our eyes, it's painful because we're realizing things that are not working. However, even though it's painful, it's actually helping us in the long run. And it's kind of like the, blessing and the curse of social media and all of the technology, but the blessing is information.

Caryn Johnson (29:28)

Right.

Yeah.

Michelle (29:45)

that is very important for us to know it's important for us to receive. So that aspect of it is really important. And then talk to us about your supplement product bond. And I know that you created that based on really your own frustration and it's become your baby. And I want to know what specifically or how does that address autoimmunity conditions for people who are going through that or?

Caryn Johnson (30:03)

Yeah.

Michelle (30:14)

least thinking maybe to look into their immunity in regards to their fertility, listening to this.

Caryn Johnson (30:21)

Yeah, absolutely. So I launched Bond just about a year ago. I concepted it. took a year prior to that from concept to launch.

So really it started in the world of advocacy for me. I was just really looking to help other women getting involved in some Facebook groups, some communities. you know, there's not a lot of knowledge, a lot of people talking about this yet. There certainly wasn't, you know, even just a few years ago. so I, I took a speaking opportunity in Detroit and

I went to Wayne State University, which is where they do a lot of the research for autoimmune infertility. the main head of that clinic asked me to come and speak to the researchers because they do all of this research and it's isolated into their facility. They don't actually see the impact of what's going on with women who are going through this.

Michelle (31:24)

Mm-hmm.

Caryn Johnson (31:25)

so I got to share my story and, you know, had a really nice day there learning and seeing their facility, their lab, what's going on. And on the drive home is really when it clicked for me that there's a lack of, or there's a gap in what's going on research wise and, know, what's being discussed and what's being carried out and brought to.

the consumer or the public's attention. And I just felt like if I didn't take a larger stand to do something bigger to help women, that we'd be many, many more years behind even. So I went back to my house in Chicago, sat in my basement and did just clinical research for months. And I logged over 300 clinical studies, all centered around

the immune system and how it relates to hormones to the reproductive system and built my thinking for original skews, which were, which are daily balance, which is our best seller conception boost, vitality, and cycle care on this thinking first. so it really started with research before it was brought forward to healthcare practitioners and then formulated out.

And a lot of the research that went into each of the products is above and beyond supporting the reproductive organs. So when you look at daily balance as a whole, it has 15 vitamins and nutrients in it. And a lot of those vitamins and nutrients were chosen to not only support hormone balance, but to take that up a level and to support the immune system as it relates to being a predecessor to hormone balance. So

adding a vitamin D, which is a huge hormone regulator, putting fiber, five grams of it into a supplement so that women are potentially protecting their gut lining better and producing those short chain fatty acids that are going to protect their gut in a way that just probiotics don't. Adding in a probiotic blend that

we studied as being healthy strains, or not healthy strains, but strains from healthy fertile women. So really focusing on these immune factors and how they pull into the world of fertility. But to the public now, you know, almost simplifying that message and making it more of like the underlying theme because we're still not necessarily totally there.

so the ingredients exists in these formulas with so much thinking and thought as it relates to the whole body. and then the formulas come out and, they're focused on hormone balance, right? As well as we have a conception product, and then we have our cycle care product, which is focused on, PMS support. So PMS, symptom alleviation, and then hormone detoxification.

Michelle (34:16)

Mm-hmm.

Caryn Johnson (34:44)

So they all have an immune angle, also address a hormonal need. 

And the other great thing too is that you can shop at a discount as a special thanks for listening to us here. You can head over to the link. We'll link it here with this podcast episode and use the code, the wholesome to get 20 % off your order.

Michelle (34:54)

Awesome. And do you have information on your site, just like support for people wanting to learn more?

Caryn Johnson (35:00)

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. we're starting to add more and more to our site. I wrote a white paper on how the microbiome affects fertility that you can download off of our website as well to get more information. And yeah, we share a lot on social too with, you know, article connections there. So that's another great way to keep up with kind of like up and coming research that we're seeing.

Michelle (35:32)

Mm-hmm.

Caryn Johnson (35:33)

But yeah, I would say too, just going back to one other thing you mentioned earlier on the, on the doctor front, the best thing to do as a consumer, like when you're hitting these issues is to bring the articles in and show them to your doctor and choose advocacy for yourself. Because I found that the response from them is far greater when you have data in your hands as to why you want to.

Michelle (35:51)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Caryn Johnson (36:03)

add a supplement, think about a different form of medication, think about a different program that might make sense for your system. So I would say, you know, that is as important as ever. And, you know, what we try to do more and more is link that PIMD article, like when we post something so that you can find the actual source and see for yourself, you know?

Michelle (36:24)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Caryn Johnson (36:31)

read the information and make smart decisions.

Michelle (36:31)

Mm-hmm.

I love that. That's great. I'm all about empowerment. think that we need a lot of that now. So this is great information. I really appreciate you sharing your story for people listening. And for people who want to find you and learn more, how can they find you?

Caryn Johnson (36:41)

Yeah.

Thank

Sure, so our website is bond.life. Our Instagram is underscore bond life and we're, you know, a newer company. I'm still really involved on our social. So we love to take DMs and interact with people one-on-one that way. If you have any questions or want to get into, you know, what you might be experiencing and what our different products are, like we're happy to get into it with you and.

I will say for anyone that wants to shop on bond on our website, absolutely love to support you. And again, really the place to start with, with us is our daily balance product. has the baseline of nutritionals you need to support your

nutrients stores, your hormonal balance, and of course, your immune system. that is our purple bag on the website there. But Michelle, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate this opportunity.

Michelle (37:57)

Yeah, it was great having you on and having this conversation, which I feel like is so important because it is kind of like the big question mark that a lot of people are facing when they're trying to conceive. So thank you so much for coming on.

Caryn Johnson (38:09)

Yeah, you're welcome.

EP 312 A Holistic Approach to Fertility | Sonia Ribas

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Sonia Ribas @soniaribascoach shares her journey from a marketing executive to a fertility coach, emphasizing the importance of holistic approaches to fertility. She discusses common challenges faced by individuals trying to conceive, the often unnecessary reliance on IVF, and the critical role of personalized treatment plans. Sonia highlights the impact of oxidative stress on fertility and the significance of mindfulness and community support in the fertility journey. Her insights aim to empower individuals and couples navigating the complexities of fertility.

Takeaways

• Sonia transitioned from a marketing executive to a fertility coach after discovering her passion for holistic health.

• Many individuals seek help too late in their fertility journey, often after failed IVF attempts.

• Statistically, 50% of IVF cases may not be necessary, highlighting the need for proper preparation.

• A holistic approach to fertility considers physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual factors.

• Oxidative stress negatively impacts egg and sperm quality, making lifestyle changes essential.

• Personalization in treatment is crucial; what works for one person may not work for another.

• Mindfulness practices can help manage stress, which can be harmful to fertility health.

• Community support is vital; many women feel isolated in their fertility struggles.

• Education and actionable steps are key components of effective fertility coaching.

Guest Bio:

Sonia Ribas, MBA, HHC, RYT

Sonia is a sought-after LA based Fertility Coach and a Mom of 3. In her last 15+ years, she has successfully coached thousands of couples struggling to conceive. Her highly personalized, transformational and integrative lifestyle-based approach, which covers everything from nutrition to wellbeing, makes her an expert guide in her clients’ path towards Parenthood. She helps couples 1on1, in groups and in collaboration with Fertility Clinics around the world, in order to help patients boost their fertility from every possible angle and maximize their chance of conceiving, both naturally and via IVF.

Besides helping couples conceive healthy babies, she is a wellness educator and extremely passionate about inspiring people around the world to lead healthy lifestyles. She constantly collaborates with International lifestyle media outlets and companies as a consultant, speaker, educator and expert Health Coach. 

You can find her at soniaribas.com and on Social Media @soniaribascoach.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Sonia.

Sonia Ribas (00:02)

Thank you so much, Michelle.

Michelle (00:04)

Yes, I would love for you to share your story of how you got into this work that you do.

Sonia Ribas (00:11)

Okay. Yeah, let's go for it. So I always say, sometimes you find things in life. Sometimes things find you. In my case, fertility found me. So in my previous life, as I like to call it, I was marketing executive and director for multinationals. And then I found yoga and I fell in love with hot yoga at the time to the point that I left my job and I went travel the world.

and I created one of the first online yoga studios in the world. And as I was doing that, yeah. And I was, was doing that occasionally. I was also teaching private sessions and, I was living in Boston at that time and I had a client who was originally from India and she was my yoga student and she was great. And then she was relocated back to India. And then she called me and she said,

Michelle (00:45)

cool.

Sonia Ribas (01:06)

Hey, my OBGYN says I'm not going to be able to have children and I'm devastated. And I was like, wow. And she said, you're the only person I trust. And I was like, well, wait a second. Like I'm not a fertility person, you know? Like I'm into healthy lifestyle. I'm a yoga instructor. I know a thing or two about these things because I follow it, but not fertility. And she said, Sonia, you're the only person I trust. So.

Michelle (01:32)

Wow.

Sonia Ribas (01:33)

This is 15 years ago. So I teamed up with my mother, who's a traditional Chinese doctor in Spain. And we teamed up together and we put together a holistic program. That was the very, very first version of what I do today. And, you know, we created meditation videos, yoga videos, lots of herbs, supplements, diet, lots of mindset tools and things like that. Things that we were coming up with. And I did a lot of research as well.

to understand, you know, I'm a research nerd, so to understand what works, what's proven, et cetera. So we created the first version for her and her labs improved a lot and she got pregnant naturally. So her OBGYN in India started referring people my way.

Michelle (02:16)

All right.

Sonia Ribas (02:22)

So yeah, the rest is history. So I started informally doing fertility coaching without being certified. My mom was helping me, but at some point my mom said, you know, I have a full practice in Spain. I think it's time for you to go on your own. So this was 15 years ago. So obviously fast forward, I got certified. I became a health coach and I got a lot of certificates in medicine and women's health and a lot more. And then

I started practicing fertility coaching 15 years ago, then I had three kids of my own. So I perfected my method with obviously my own experience. And yeah, by now we've helped make more than a thousand babies.

Michelle (03:08)

Amazing, that's incredible. So cool.

So what are some of the common things that you see when people come to you for fertility? Like some of the common stories that people share on their journey I know that's a big question, but whatever comes first.

Sonia Ribas (03:27)

Totally. So what I wish I would see, first I'm going to tell you what I wish and then the reality is, because sometimes it helps understand what I wish I would see is I wish I would see more people come earlier. So I always use the analogy of a wedding, know, the same way as you prepare for a wedding. And if you think I'm going to get married, you don't just show up in your sweatpants at your wedding, right? You prepare, you get a dress, you prepare a set, you know, you get the whole thing going.

Michelle (03:41)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sonia Ribas (03:57)

I wish it would be the same for having a baby because there's a lot of things that we would prepare in advance. There wouldn't be so many headaches and so many heartaches. Now, the reality is that I see people when they're on the desperate side, when they've been trying for a while and it has the journeys longer than they anticipated or when they've been told IBF is their only option.

Michelle (04:14)

Mm-hmm.

Sonia Ribas (04:23)

or even worse when they've tried IVF or IUI and it didn't work and then they come to me as a better alternative, more empowered version to get pregnant.

Michelle (04:35)

And you say you had mentioned that you think that many times in many cases, people don't really need IVF. What has your experience been with that?

Sonia Ribas (04:46)

So statistically, 50 % of IVF cases are not needed. So that right there tells you what happens, right? So a lot of people are thrown into IVF because that's the nature of the Western medical approach to fertility. In some cases, it works. In many cases, it doesn't work. And when it doesn't work, most of the times it's because the person was unprepared or the couple was unprepared or because it was not needed.

So I always say, I always use the analogy of a car. So if your car doesn't work, what do you do? You take it to the mechanic and the mechanic tries to jumpstart the battery. So that's IVF. IVF is jumpstarting your system. You might or might not be ready for it. It might or it might not work, but the process is very expensive, very invasive, and it has side effects potentially for the rest of your life. So it's not something to take lightly.

Michelle (05:19)

Mm-hmm.

Sonia Ribas (05:42)

It's not like, hey, I'm going to get my whatever. It's not like I'm going to get my teeth cleaned. No, it's an invasive thing. So what I say is going back to the analogy of the car, if your car doesn't work, you can take it to the mechanic, you can open the motor and have a look. Clean whatever needs to be cleaned, repair whatever needs to be repaired so that when you try to switch it on, it will switch on without being jump-started. It will switch on natural.

So this is what we do here. And I always say to people, hey, if down the line, it hasn't happened naturally and you want to continue trying IVF, by that time you'll be ready. Look, I always go back to statistics. IVF without preparation is about a 20 % success rate. IVF with the proper preparation and optimizing your system is an 85 % success rate. So if you're going to throw yourself into this process,

At least prepare yourself so you can optimize your chances of success.

Michelle (06:46)

And what are some of the things that you see that people need when they come to you? Like, What are some of the more common things that you see?

Sonia Ribas (06:56)

So we here, we leave no stone unturned because everybody needs a combination of factors and everybody is really different. So for some people, it's more the physical side. For other people, it's more the mental, the past traumas, the blockages, the limiting beliefs energetically. So we leave no stone unturned. We cover everything from the physical layer, the mental, the emotional, the energetic, and the spiritual layer. So we have a holistic approach.

to fertility, which I love your podcast is wholesome because we use that word all the time as well.

Michelle (07:31)

Yes, for sure. mean, there's so many different layers. Some of the things that I personally see is a lot of people are given diagnosis and I guess in the journey, it's very easy to get a lot of limiting labels thrown at you. And I really say thrown at you. mean, I was one of them. had my own issues with my menstrual cycle.

growing up, but not realizing that I had other option. And I think that a lot of times is that people don't realize that they have options and they don't realize or aren't really told along the way, unless they find the right person, that there are alternatives and things that they could do to improve their state. I think that that was, that's the biggest hurdle is just really not even knowing anything else exists.

Sonia Ribas (08:25)

Absolutely. Yeah, so a lot of the things we do is education because people obviously you don't know and people go to Dr. Google, which is probably the last thing you should be doing because it's nerve-wracking. So we do a lot of education, but we step a lot into action. We're very, very action and results oriented. I always say to my clients, we are here for transformation. And if we are here for transformation, we need to combine information,

plus action. So everything we offer here is very, very action oriented, whether it's on the diet side and we roll up our sleeves and we create personalized diets for our clients. But also, for example, on the movement side, we give them a lot of tools. Like it's not just, go move and go exercise, but we give them a lot of exercise videos, yoga videos, strength training, like all the tools they can actually go and implement with real actionables.

Michelle (09:24)

And when you talked about percentage of improvement for IVF, if you're prepared versus not prepared, is that anything specific to your work or something that you've seen? How do you base that?

Sonia Ribas (09:38)

No. Yeah. So that's kind of like statistics that we draw in our practice. mean, the fact that IVF is around a 20 % success rate is known. That's not something that I've decided. That's something that's published. Obviously, it depends on the age brackets and all that, but we can call it an average. And then what I see is I have a lot of people who've tried IVF, and they come my way after a number of failed rounds of IVF.

Michelle (09:43)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Sonia Ribas (10:06)

And then we can draw statistics of like, from these people, how many people then have a successful IVF after? And it's about 85%.

Michelle (10:13)

Yeah, that's awesome. it's good to know. I'm curious because I'm a little bit of a numbers nerd myself and I like to kind of get like data and I hearing just things even with like studies and so kind of jogged my curiosity. That's awesome and I agree. I do Chinese medicine. I also do fertility coaching, but ultimately,

Sonia Ribas (10:19)

Me too.

Michelle (10:35)

when you do make these changes in your lifestyle, you really can optimize a lot of your wellbeing, but it's almost like you're the way I see it is you're triggering an anti-aging because that's really what fertility is. It's kind of like anti-aging treatment. If you think about it, it's the same thing. It's just really optimizing your health, optimizing your mitochondria and your body's energy so that it's able to

Sonia Ribas (10:52)

Right? Yes.

Michelle (11:02)

produce, reproduce, but that's ultimately like turning back the clock, which we can actually do. something that you can actually do with lifestyle, which is why I find it so empowering in general. I find that a lot of people also feel that it's not just empowering for conceiving, but it's empowering as they get older as well.

Sonia Ribas (11:12)

Yes.

Yes, yes, exactly. So what we do here is reverse the effects of oxidative stress. So as you say, it's kind of like the anti-aging version of fertility.

Michelle (11:36)

And what are some of the things that you find or some of the ways you approach that just for people listening that are curious, like, cause some people know, you know, that that can impact equality as we age, oxidative stress gets higher, but some people might not, you know, it might be like new terms if they're just listening to this now and they're first starting this journey. so let's kind of break it down for the listeners if they're hearing this and why it's so impactful for

not just egg quality, but for sperm quality as well.

Sonia Ribas (12:09)

Yes, there's a massive difference though. obviously as you age, oxidative stress happens. It's the byproduct of being alive. It's funny because my dad always said, you know, when my dad drinks or something and I say, hey, dad, this kills you. He says, you know what? Living kills me. Being alive means that you are subject to the process of oxidative stress. Everybody's subject to that. Now there's a difference between egg and sperm. Eggs,

Michelle (12:27)

Mm-hmm.

Sonia Ribas (12:38)

You are born with your set of eggs. I cannot take out your eggs and replace them. They are there. We can do a lot of things to optimize their functioning, optimize their quality. As you said, optimize the mitochondria and make them fitter and stronger and better working, but they're the same. Now, sperm on the other side is regenerated all the time. The sperm that's ejaculated today is not the sperm that will be ejaculated tomorrow or in three weeks.

That's why it's a lot easier. In my experience, it's a lot easier to improve sperm quality than egg quality. But we can work on both and we definitely have great success on both. But every time that I get a couple that have a combination of factors, I always look at the male and I say, okay, you're on the lucky side. If you do this program, I can guarantee for sure that your sperm will improve no matter what.

Michelle (13:39)

So let's talk about the egg quality and how oxidative stress impacts the egg quality and like what people can do, generally speaking to improve their quality of eggs.

Sonia Ribas (13:44)

Okay, yeah.

Okay, great. So how it impacts egg quality is, well, it's in a number of ways, but primarily two very strong ways. One of them is genetically. It affects the DNA structure of your cells, including the DNA structure of your eggs. So when your eggs produce embryos, it might be that the embryos are genetically not normal. So that's when we see genetic things happen, even not viable.

So that's one thing that happened. The other thing that is very visible that happens is that the mitochondria, which is the energy factories of the cells, get affected. So they're not as strong. This is why we recommend supplements like CoQ10, for example, to boost the functioning of the mitochondria. Now, what do we do holistically in this program to optimize that quality? It's one of my favorite topics in the world. Thanks for asking me that. So it's a holistic approach.

We boost fertility, we boost equality from every possible angle, everything lifestyle-based and everything is research-based here. So everything we offer here has been proven at some point by research papers. So we work on 15 factors. So my program is 15 modules plus a bonus module, that's male factor. So for 15 modules, we deep dive into 15 areas of your lifestyle.

that need to be optimized because they're strictly related to fertility. So if you optimize those areas of your lifestyle, you are boosting your fertility and your egg quality no matter what. And those are, there's a physical layer, there's a mental layer, emotional layer, energetic layer, and spiritual layer. So we combine things like diet, hydration, supplements, weight management, movement. We talk about inner dialogue, emotions.

cortisol, stress, everything that happens related to your stress hormones, sleep patterns, circadian rhythms, your relationships, your toxic relationships, your conflict, your libido, your sex drive, your relationship, your connection to your partner, environmental toxins, empowerment, your connection to your inner power, limiting beliefs, empowering self-affirmations, meditations, cycle syncing. also do

sit cycling, and then connecting to your group. So I think it's very important. And that's something we never talk about, which is like, can throw a lot of things at you. But if we don't find your version of what I'm talking about, it's not going to work. So that's why it's very important, the concept of bio-individuality, which means a person's food is another person's poison. Right?

Michelle (16:34)

Yeah, it's true.

100%.

Sonia Ribas (16:45)

Everything needs to be personalized to you because we are here to deliver results for you, not for your neighbor. So what works for your neighbor and your cousin might be very different. Some people have night shifts. Some people have preferences on food. Some people have cravings. Some people turn to different things to deal with emotions. Some people have past trauma, most of us. Like all of this is very, very personal. So what I'm very fascinated about and obsessed about is

Michelle (16:53)

my god, so true.

Sonia Ribas (17:15)

How do we go in the trenches with our clients? How do we help them land all the recommendations into their real life so that we can truly move the needle for them?

Michelle (17:28)

Yeah, I love that. It's so true because that is something that I often see is, especially when they first come to us because they're like, you know, my best friend, she also struggled with fertility. She tried this herb and it helped her. And I wanted to try it too, or somebody else tried DHEA, which is a hormone and I want to try it too. And it is a hormone and it is something that I always recommend never take anything like that.

unless you get tested and see what's going on in your body. Because for one person, it could be amazing. It could be a game changer. But if your body has a completely different makeup and imbalance of hormones, it can actually be detrimental. So I'm really glad that you brought that up because everybody's so unique. literally are like, our bodies are like fingerprints. And I love that saying one man's food is another man's poison. It's 100 % true.

Like somebody can thrive, actually dairy has been shown to help with many women who are trying to conceive full fat. It's been shown in studies. I'm also a nerd with that. Like I love that because it's true. Like then you could see, okay, for the majority, yeah, it can actually be really beneficial. However, if you have a dairy sensitivity or an allergy or it causes more inflammation, or as in Chinese medicine, we look at like dampness.

which is an element, I'm sure your mom has taught you about that. Then if that's the case, that would not be great for that particular person. it's so important for people to realize that, yes, you listen to podcasts and you read about it and you go down like Dr. Google, as you said, and you can learn a lot of things. However, your body is so unique and your body needs a customized plan.

Sonia Ribas (19:03)

Thanks.

Yes, absolutely. And even a step further, your body today is different than your body in two weeks because you are a woman and you are in the waves of your menstrual cycle. So if you're ovulating today, you'll feel strong, you'll feel energetic, you'll feel social. And in two weeks, as you're about to menstruate, you'll feel like a completely different person.

Michelle (19:33)

Yes, that's true.

Sonia Ribas (19:52)

And that's something I like to talk about because I get a lot of men kind of like asking me how true this is, how is PMS real? Is she making it up? you know, they just, because they're flat, they don't understand the fluctuations of hormones. And I do a lot of education on that, on cycle syncing, how this is real and how life is a lot easier if you serve the waves of your cycle.

instead of fighting it or instead of just acting as if it doesn't exist.

Michelle (20:24)

Totally. I call that just kind of personal flow. In Chinese medicine, we do a lot of like physical flow with the meridians and our qi. But when we have flow in our life, that's really what it looks like. It's really understanding, not fighting, kind of going with that, riding those waves. So yeah, I totally agree.

Awesome. And so what are some of the, love talking also about the mind and how stress can impact our bodies. I understand this from a Chinese medicine perspective. I also, we know that when we're in fight or flight, basically the energy rich blood rich areas are going to be our arms and legs or limbs so that we can either fight or run. And it takes it away from our vital organs and including the uterus. So

let's talk about that. Let's talk about how stress can impact fertility and why it's so important to address that aspect of ourselves.

Sonia Ribas (21:27)

Okay. I love, this is one of my favorite topics. So when it comes to stress, I always say there's two kinds of stress. There's useful stress and there's chronic stress, which is not useful. So stress is a natural response and it's actually very useful response to danger and to situations in life that need for you to be pumped with certain hormones called disall adrenaline to react.

Like if there's a lion about to chase me, I need to experience stress so that I can react and save my life, right? I need to run or hide or something, right? So that's useful. And in certain situations in life, that's very useful. Now we have in our modern society normalized a stressful feeling to the point that because we have deadlines, have infertility problems, we have a lot of things going on.

Our body is constantly in alert as if a lion's about to chase me every five minutes. So that's called chronic stress and that is highly inflammatory. So if you feel you're having that, which you probably are because we pretty much all have that, you need to find ways to release that cortisol. You know, because otherwise we have what we call a cortisol intoxication or a cortisol overload.

And cortisol is highly inflammatory, even excess. So you need to find ways to release it. And this is where we step into action. So for me, for example, I need to go workout to release stress. If I don't move, I can meditate and things like that, but it's not going to be the same as sweating it out. So I do hot yoga. Hot yoga is my thing. Right. For other people, it's different, you know, there's a lot of different ways. So.

Michelle (23:10)

I love hot yoga. Yeah.

Sonia Ribas (23:19)

If workout works for you, great. Meditation also works for a lot of people. And if you're not meditating, I get a lot of people tell me, that's not for me. Give it a chance because meditation does not need to be a full hour in Tibet. It can be 10 minutes, five minutes sitting on your bed and just like focus on your breath, diaphragmatic breathing. As you inhale, expand your belly.

As you exhale, you contract your belly and you connect to your breath. And that in itself sends your brain signal of, am safe. And you can activate your parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest. And that's where your reproductive function thrives. If, however, you're activating your sympathetic nervous system, which is your fight or flight, then your reproductive function won't be favorized.

Michelle (24:05)

Yes.

Sonia Ribas (24:13)

because your body will only favorize the functions that are essential for survival.

Michelle (24:19)

Absolutely.

Sonia Ribas (24:20)

So another way that I always tell people to activate your parasympathetic nervous system, so to release stress, is hugging. Hugging, a long hug, also does that. Also sends that signal to your brain of, am safe, I escaped the lion, everything's good. So that also works really well. And also hot and cold therapy.

So if you're stressed and you're like, my God, I don't know what to do with myself, go take a cold shower or a hot shower or combine both or take ice water or make yourself a hot tea. Like hot and cold therapy are very good as a way to release cortisol as well.

Michelle (25:06)

Interesting. Yeah. mean, there's the cold plunges. There's I'm trying to look into that as far as fertility goes. Possibly might be good for men, but I'm not sure about women quite yet. Trying to do the research on that, but I do agree. Maybe it's kind of like that initial kind of shift from one state to another that sort of breaks up the stagnation.

Sonia Ribas (25:29)

Yeah, it's the shocker. I knew you're going to say that because obviously in the traditional Chinese medicine, we don't want to be cold. And I grew up this way. You always want to be on the warmer side. I remember when my mom did her internship in Beijing, it was super hot, like 110 degrees. And everybody was drinking hot tea 24-7. And she was calling me like, I don't know if I can do this, like, hot tea.

Michelle (25:31)

It's a shock, yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Sonia Ribas (26:00)

But yeah, I know very well that that's a tradition. I grew up with that. And for me, cold water is a problem too. But what I do is I shock my system and I do hot, cold, hot, cold, and I always end with hot because I cannot walk out of my shower feeling cold. But I do think shocker.

Michelle (26:17)

Yes, and also the shower is not as extreme as some of these cold plunges.

Sonia Ribas (26:22)

That's true. That's true. Yeah, I do think the combination though is very, very interesting. But as we said, hey, bio individual.

Michelle (26:28)

Right. It's like the yin and yang. We're kind of forcing a yin and yang balance in some way. Yeah.

Sonia Ribas (26:33)

Exactly. Yeah. And also, you know, try it out. Like I always say to people, don't take my word for anything. Everything we talk about, try it out for yourself and see it in your own body, how it feels. Find your own version.

Michelle (26:44)

Yeah, that's right. Totally. And I think that our bodies are just so intelligent and we're made of this intelligence and it always speaks to us. It speaks to us with food. It will guide you if you're really connecting with it, which is why I love meditation so much because it really brings us an awareness to that communication. It bridges, it almost like builds this neuron, this connection between us and our bodies.

that maybe we've ignored for so long and sort of forgot really was there. That's why I love mindfulness. But also what I love about really becoming mindful and meditation is it teaches us to become aware of our body. we can catch ourselves if we're getting too stressed out about certain things, we can catch ourselves and realize, hey, I'm not actually in danger right now.

and of realize that, and that mindfulness is what is kind of on guard to check, you know, your situation.

Sonia Ribas (27:50)

Absolutely. I love that you're saying that. I love mindfulness. In my program, we call it heartfulness, actually, because it's all the mindfulness principles of being aware of what you're doing, of your surroundings, being very much there. But I call it heartfulness because I like to shift the focus from here, because we spend so much time here, to here. How does it feel? How does it feel to be here now?

Michelle (27:56)

Ooh, I love that.

Yes.

Sonia Ribas (28:19)

Okay, you're noticing everything, mindfulness and the added touch of the heart, the feeling, the savoring. I feel we need more savoring and we need to be more connected to that concept of savoring in life. And that's one of the things that I preach all the time.

Michelle (28:38)

I love that because it's almost like bringing romance back into life, right? Cause it's like those moments, just savoring those moments and bringing more romance, which really, does that do? It's like infusing meaning into the moment. And there's more meaning, there's more richness. And if you think about just kind of how we used to live, I think of like, I don't know, a street in Paris where people are just sitting a lot longer to talk and eat and take their time and really tasting everything.

Sonia Ribas (28:42)

I love that. Yeah, totally.

Michelle (29:05)

I think that when you're doing that, you're really infusing kind of that chi life force energy into your moments in life, which ultimately I think impact your body.

Sonia Ribas (29:16)

Yes, and fertility is about that. Fertility, a concept for me of fertility, the essence of boosting fertility is adding that boost of life into your life. More grace, more flow, more enjoying, more savoring, more being here, more embracing, empowering yourself.

Michelle (29:29)

I love that.

Yeah, I love that. That's so true. mean, really, ultimately that's it's just a richness. It's kind of like living in an energy rich state, which ultimately, mean, that's it's kind of like just energy being really efficient and thriving through your body. And that's when your cup overflows, you're able to bring more life forth. And that's yeah. Also, I think that also when you're working in this work,

You start to see patterns and you start to see how clearly what's crazy about it is that in order to reproduce, we need all this energy, but like the fertility journey on its own can be so taxing and draining, which is why it's important to have somebody who understands it to guide you and to help you with that ultimately. And, or even a community or friends or connecting with others going through it, because I think that helps as well.

having that sense of support.

Sonia Ribas (30:37)

Absolutely. Absolutely. You don't need to go through this alone. I think that some things in life are meant for you to do alone, some things are not. And fertility is definitely not one of them. I am always shocked when I read statistics that about 63 % of women with fertility problems never talk about it with anyone. It totally breaks my heart.

Michelle (30:47)

Yeah.

That's sad. Yeah. see it too. mean, people, when they first come to my office, they're like, they feel so relieved. They're like, I can't really talk about this. Even with my husband sometimes, I'll say.

Sonia Ribas (31:09)

Totally. Yeah, totally. They're so scared of ruining their marriage if they talk about it. And in my program, we combine private coaching with group coaching. And I have a lot of people at the beginning of the program who are unsure about the group coaching at the beginning. And they're like, I'm not sure, you know, it's kind of private. Then they give it a go. And then by the end of the program, when they give me feedbacks, I always ask for feedback at the end. They say, my God, the group sessions were the best. It's a group.

They call it a mouth hug. And feeling seen, feeling validated by women who are in the same season in life is so, so therapeutic.

Michelle (31:39)

Yes. Yeah.

my God, yes, I've seen the same thing and I've seen people in the programs connecting and having lifelong relationships because afterwards I'll find out they're still in touch and it's amazing. Yeah, it's really, and I think that also we're meant to meet the right people at the right time, even people going through the same journey and they become really like lifelong friends.

Sonia Ribas (31:59)

I think.

Exactly, exactly. Those people were meant to cross paths and to continue some journeys together. Absolutely.

Michelle (32:19)

Yes, awesome. So if somebody's hearing this, is there like a word or a sentence or some kind of inspiring tip that you can provide? Somebody's going through it right now, going through the fertility journey and obviously going through the struggles that we all know are very real.

Sonia Ribas (32:37)

Yes. So I think that my summary for today is you don't need to do this alone, especially this week. I'm very sensitive to this because I've seen a lot of people who have chosen to do this on their own and to continue struggling on their own. it totally breaks my heart. So in terms of your chances of success, in terms of how enjoyable this will be in terms of your own journey and your own experience, don't you ever think you need to do this alone? You know, there's help out there that can make it so much better for you.

and embrace it.

Michelle (33:10)

Awesome. And so if people are hearing this and they want to find out more about you, how can they find you?

Sonia Ribas (33:16)

Okay. So the two ways, easier ways to find me is my website, sonyarebus.com and my Instagram page, which is Sonia rebus coach.

Michelle (33:27)

Awesome. So Sonia, thank you so much for coming on. I have all your information on the episode notes if anybody wants to find it. And this is a great conversation. I love that you're really into empowering couples. And ultimately, I think that that is so needed in this world. So thank you so much for coming on today.

Sonia Ribas (33:50)

Thanks for having me, Michelle.